4 ms·

The framing of this whole article is weird. Zhang is put forward as some kind of example of the favourable treatment Tesla is getting in the courts and how Tesl

by shkkmo 2y ago

The framing of this whole article is weird. Zhang is put forward as some kind of example of the favourable treatment Tesla is getting in the courts and how Tesla is silencing critics. Yet she was wrong about the cause of the accident and didn't just criticize, but actively protested at industry events and Tesla still didn't open their defamation suit until after she started hers. I'm sympathetic to the idea behind this article, but it doesn't seem to actually do any of the work to justify it's conclusions. I do think that owners should be given full access to all telemetry data from their vehicles and the fact that Tesla doesn't do this is very disappointing.

marcusverus 2y ago
Journalism is a masterclass in how to deceive without lying.
- porridgeraisin 2y ago
  Nice way to put it, stealing that one.
kelnos 2y ago
> Yet she was wrong about the cause of the accident I don't think we can take that at face value. Tesla refused to release the pre-crash data for... weeks? Months? And only did so after perhaps it seemed like they might lose the case. Why not release the data immediately? Sure, it's possible that the driver screwed up, and even if he really did cry out "the brakes aren't working!" as the woman claims, he was just confused and doing the wrong thing. But I wouldn't put it past Tesla to release fake vehicle telemetry that supports their case, either.
- shkkmo 2y ago
  > But I wouldn't put it past Tesla to release fake vehicle telemetry that supports their case, either. Perhaps, but there isn't any evidence of this, just speculation from an interested party. This speculation is what the whole premise of the article hinges on, but there is no support provided for it. Instead the article seems to bank on a readership that dislikes Musk so much that they don't engage any critical thinking skills . The risk of being exposed for lying in court and faking telemetry data does not seem like it would be remotely worth it to win this lawsuit for Tesla.
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    >but there isn't any evidence of this, just speculation from an interested party. Yes. If only something like a journalist can shed light on this and prompt such investigation. ...of course, this is a story in China, so we know none of their government will push on this. >The risk of being exposed for lying in court and faking telemetry data does not seem like it would be remotely worth it to win this lawsuit for Tesla. It would not... so that's exactly what Elon would do. Especiallg if he feels cozy with Chinese leaders.
    - simondotau 2y ago
      Don't reify journalists. And be careful not to engage in wishful thinking. Ascribing malice towards people you don't like is precisely what's wrong with both sides of politics.
rich_sasha 2y ago
It's terrible handling of the early stages from Tesla. Or they know their car is faulty and took their time to doctor the data. But assuming not, they could have just released the data and called it quits. It's not inconceivable that the driver was "pressing the pedal wrong" - wasn't that the ultimate problem with the Toyotas in the US? But they managed to peeve off a customer so much that they went berserk and frankly too far. But it's easy to understand the anger.
- wruza 2y ago
  It almost feels like no one in this thread worked at a company. Who's to decide to release it or not? Low level workers have no decision rights. Mid-management that handles this has to cooperate with technical and legal departments and juggle associated risks, including "my-ass" risks. Upper management won't "just do it" without waiting on detailed reports on the facts and implications. One doesn't simply just do it at Tesla scale, it doesn't work like that. No other automotive company would release it quicker than until the courtroom, unless there was a pre-designed set of processes for doing so anytime. You may blame Tesla for being shady in that regard -- that's true, they are opaque and tricky and their leader is a Demon Lord. But doctoring the case in a non-legal-risky way would probably cost much more to them than just throwing some money at $subj. Imagine all these departments working together to fabricate something not easily debunkable by a curious nerd... That's 100K..1M budget range with unavoidably huge reputational risks.
  - rich_sasha 2y ago
    In Europe in general you are entitled to access all data a company holds on you. I don't know if that specifically extends to Tesla telemetrics but I can't see why not. You can get all your data from Facebook and Google. So I don't think this is so impossible.
    - wruza 2y ago
      [Im]possible is a technical term. It's demonstrably possible, that's not a question. The problem is in incentives, which are naturally counter-aligned to this. It seems that you're thinking on "a company is just a guy" level. But that is never true (except for nano companies with no structure). When there's no incentives but lots of risks and responsibilities, things just don't happen until there's a grave necessity -or- some envisioning directive that streamlines it.

by shkkmo 2y ago

marcusverus 2y ago

Journalism is a masterclass in how to deceive without lying.

porridgeraisin 2y ago
Nice way to put it, stealing that one.

kelnos 2y ago

> Yet she was wrong about the cause of the accident I don't think we can take that at face value. Tesla refused to release the pre-crash data for... weeks? Months? And only did so after perhaps it seemed like they might lose the case. Why not release the data immediately? Sure, it's possible that the driver screwed up, and even if he really did cry out "the brakes aren't working!" as the woman claims, he was just confused and doing the wrong thing. But I wouldn't put it past Tesla to release fake vehicle telemetry that supports their case, either.

shkkmo 2y ago
> But I wouldn't put it past Tesla to release fake vehicle telemetry that supports their case, either. Perhaps, but there isn't any evidence of this, just speculation from an interested party. This speculation is what the whole premise of the article hinges on, but there is no support provided for it. Instead the article seems to bank on a readership that dislikes Musk so much that they don't engage any critical thinking skills . The risk of being exposed for lying in court and faking telemetry data does not seem like it would be remotely worth it to win this lawsuit for Tesla.
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  >but there isn't any evidence of this, just speculation from an interested party. Yes. If only something like a journalist can shed light on this and prompt such investigation. ...of course, this is a story in China, so we know none of their government will push on this. >The risk of being exposed for lying in court and faking telemetry data does not seem like it would be remotely worth it to win this lawsuit for Tesla. It would not... so that's exactly what Elon would do. Especiallg if he feels cozy with Chinese leaders.
  - simondotau 2y ago
    Don't reify journalists. And be careful not to engage in wishful thinking. Ascribing malice towards people you don't like is precisely what's wrong with both sides of politics.

rich_sasha 2y ago

It's terrible handling of the early stages from Tesla. Or they know their car is faulty and took their time to doctor the data. But assuming not, they could have just released the data and called it quits. It's not inconceivable that the driver was "pressing the pedal wrong" - wasn't that the ultimate problem with the Toyotas in the US? But they managed to peeve off a customer so much that they went berserk and frankly too far. But it's easy to understand the anger.

wruza 2y ago
It almost feels like no one in this thread worked at a company. Who's to decide to release it or not? Low level workers have no decision rights. Mid-management that handles this has to cooperate with technical and legal departments and juggle associated risks, including "my-ass" risks. Upper management won't "just do it" without waiting on detailed reports on the facts and implications. One doesn't simply just do it at Tesla scale, it doesn't work like that. No other automotive company would release it quicker than until the courtroom, unless there was a pre-designed set of processes for doing so anytime. You may blame Tesla for being shady in that regard -- that's true, they are opaque and tricky and their leader is a Demon Lord. But doctoring the case in a non-legal-risky way would probably cost much more to them than just throwing some money at $subj. Imagine all these departments working together to fabricate something not easily debunkable by a curious nerd... That's 100K..1M budget range with unavoidably huge reputational risks.
- rich_sasha 2y ago
  In Europe in general you are entitled to access all data a company holds on you. I don't know if that specifically extends to Tesla telemetrics but I can't see why not. You can get all your data from Facebook and Google. So I don't think this is so impossible.
  - wruza 2y ago
    [Im]possible is a technical term. It's demonstrably possible, that's not a question. The problem is in incentives, which are naturally counter-aligned to this. It seems that you're thinking on "a company is just a guy" level. But that is never true (except for nano companies with no structure). When there's no incentives but lots of risks and responsibilities, things just don't happen until there's a grave necessity -or- some envisioning directive that streamlines it.