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> as you transition to death those barriers are less necessary as the body diverts increasingly scarce resources to surviving just a few moments longer. The mo
by didericis 2y ago
> as you transition to death those barriers are less necessary as the body diverts increasingly scarce resources to surviving just a few moments longer.
The more I think about survival based evolutionary explanations for NDEs, the less sense they make.
Obviously evolution is true, and there's an obvious relationship between the physical degradation of the body and the brain and hallucinations. I'm not trying to make a cheap appeal to mysticism and deny these things, but NDEs are profoundly weird and difficult to explain when you think about them from that angle.
Why would a body motivated to survive at all costs waste resources creating comforting hallucinations with some kind of internal coherence during catastrophic failure? Wouldn't a more logical and theoretically sound failure mode for a body trying to survive at all costs be some kind of increasingly incoherent descent into something like TV static as resources get diverted from sense making to repairing systems critical to survival? Or just pure unconscious blackness as with general anesthesia? If consciousness is purely computational, then any coherent internal experience implies the brain is spending biological resources maintaining the physical integrity of something, despite being increasingly severed from the sense input it needs to actually navigate the world to survive. And if the body is going through the trouble of maintaining some level of internal consciousness as it nears death, why wouldn't it simply create a hellish ever increasing amount of fear and pain until the moment of complete physical death to create the strongest possible motivation to avoid ever repeating the experience?
Many people who experience NDEs and survive report craving a repeat of the experience and losing their fear of death. That's profoundly counterproductive from a survival standpoint. There's an argument about group related benefits and a need to offset communal panic due to our knowledge of our own mortality that's easier to ground in a purely survival based explanation, and while that definitely fits better, I increasingly get the sense we're trying to overfit evolutionary explanations that assume a purely survival oriented computational theory of consciousness to things we don't actually understand nearly as well as we think we do, and that the fear of not knowing can just as easily be used to argue motivated reasoning for appealing to things we basically understand like computation and biology as the fear of death can be used to argue motivated reasoning for appealing to things we don't.
The history of all human knowledge is defined by an increasing ability to transcend and expand our theories to incorporate ever more detailed knowledge about previously unseen things. First we were convinced the world was made of unseen animal spirits, then we were convinced it was made of unseen combinations of the four elements in a world governed by a pantheon of superhuman deities, then we were convinced it was made of a hierarchy of unseen forces interacting with seen forces through God given, rationally discoverable natural law, and now we are convinced it is made of purely physical rules which may or may not be fully comprehensible given what we can observe, and those seen and unseen purely physical forces created complex biological systems that can model the world through different types of computation, some of which we understand, and some of which we don’t.
I think it's extremely unlikely that we've figured out the final and most comprehensive framework for understanding reality, and I think there’s a lot about conscious experience and our ability to meaningfully perceive and categorize things that are still deeply mysterious/poorly understood.
EDIT: Didn’t like my previous wording of this/changed it, and still don’t feel like I’m doing justice to what I’m trying to get across. Iain McGilchrist’s “The Matter with Things”, John Vervaeke talks about “Relevance Realization”, Freeman Dyson’s lectures/books about the importance of “heretical views” for the expansion of knowledge, Donald Hoffman’s work claiming evolved models of reality in every kind of environment never create accurate maps, and just observing how difficult the alignment/verification problem is in AI are all pointing in this same direction, and make a more compelling case for what I’m trying to say than I can.
- stormfather 2y agoThat was beautifully written. There are an estimated 50 sextillion (5*10^22) habitable earth-like planets in the observable universe. On average they're 1.8 billion years older than Earth. Think about the implications of this for a minute. We don't see green space men, but that's not how we would expect life forms billions of years more advanced than us to appear. The entire universe must be suffused with intelligence, and if that's so, doesn't that suggest there is more to life than what you see on the surface? I find this conclusion inescapable when considering the size and age of the universe. There is more to life than meets the eye. How could it be otherwise?
- didericis 2y agoThank you, appreciate the compliment. I actually just edited it/got a bit self conscious about the tone and added some references, in part because I think truly grokking the core of what I’m saying (which fits perfectly with what you’re saying/is a conclusion I’ve also come to) is both really profound and really easy for engineering minded people like most of this audience to dismiss if you don’t ground it properly. Was worried I was getting overly fluffy and people would then assume the evidence and strength of the argument was less grounded than it is, and pared it down before seeing your reply. Hopefully I kept enough to retain what resonated. There’s something about acknowledging the extent of the unknown that’s extremely humbling, awe inspiring, and difficult to adequately articulate, and it’s something I think is important to spend extra effort communicating.
- rixed 2y ago> We don't see green space men, but that's not how we would expect life forms billions of years more advanced than us to appear. From the history of life on Earth, we should expect extraterrestrial life forms to appear as a self replicating molecular device way simpler than this accidental peculiar ape with a large brain that we usually associate with the notion of intelligence.
- stormfather 2y agoI'm talking about the end-state of super-evolved lifeforms with runaway intelligence, like humanity. Imagine how humanity will change over the next million years. We will become like Q from Star Trek TNG - beings that are essentially godlike and that transcend the need for bodies, however tiny, and that can project themselves instantly anywhere. Beings that are immortal and beyond the need to replicate, and have somewhat inscrutable goals for involving themselves with lesser lifeforms. Therefore that is what other lifeforms evolved into on some of the other 50 sextillion habitable planets, only billions of years ago. That is the kind of life that I am saying surely now fills the universe. Whatever its nature, it is statistically certain that it exists and is omnipotent, and at the very least permits you the space to exist. I would even say it is certain to be infinitely curious and is aware of us. Perhaps such advanced life is compassionate, wants you to grow, and abhors waste and death. Perhaps it sees you like a rose in a garden. Perhaps its an agent of some deeper level of existence you aren't privy to which would explain phenomenon like commonalities in near death experiences, or children that remember their past lives.