4 ms·

I am extremely unlikely to ever allow anything even vaguely related to Elon Musk to implant something in my brain, or even to wear as completely noninvasive "th

I am extremely unlikely to ever allow anything even vaguely related to Elon Musk to implant something in my brain, or even to wear as completely noninvasive "through the skin" helmet or headband-like sensing device. Nevermind something with him as a founder.

ivraatiems 2y ago
If it was that or be paralyzed for the rest of your life, would you at least consider it? I don't like Musk and I find Neuralink spooky in terms of their overall goals, but it's hard to deny how much this invention helps people.
- ben_w 2y ago
  Given the security track record of software in general, not even specifically those of Musk's companies but more broadly zero-days in all the major platforms, I would worry about a scenario half way between the plot of the film Upgrade and the long-standing trope of using hypnosis to turn someone into an unwitting assassin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upgrade_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upgrade_(film)
  - tmnvdb 2y ago
    It seems easy to worry about somewhat far-fetched scenarios like this when one is not paralyzed and thus not making a trade-off between risks and a fully paralyzed life.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      The tech itself is far-fetched; that hackers exploit vulnerabilities in every system is not, rather it is so common you can measure attempts in Herz.
      - tmnvdb 2y ago
        You have again ignored the trade-off in your word-play.
        computerthings 2y ago
        If it would make the greed and exploitation that form people like Musk go away without a trace and forever, I'd happily to be paralyzed for the rest of my life. Nobody would even have to know and thank me for it, as long as I knew... I'd watch humanity flourish on TV and cry tears of happiness. Even the best version of my best life is still just 1 life.
        tmnvdb 2y ago
        It is very brave of you to make this totally hypothetical sacrifce for us - only in your mind of course.
        computerthings 2y ago
        > If it was that or be paralyzed for the rest of your life, would you at least consider it? It's all hypothetical anyway, what's your deal? Are you saying the totally hypothetical life changing cure is something to be impressed by so much, that the real suffering caused by those pursuing it is to be ignored? Ignoring the real suffering for some hypothetical deus ex machina is very cowardly, and if my hypothetical sacrifice reminded you of that, that's fine. "If Elon Musk gave a shit about anything than profit, and knew his ass from his elbow, and this tech was feasible, and you were paralyzed, would you do it?" He doesn't, he doesn't, it may not be, and I'm not, so the question is moot. But it's very scientific to ask, and a great way to navigate such society impacting questions, thanks!
        try_the_bass 2y ago
        Yikes dude. Neither SpaceX nor Tesla would exist if he only cared about profit. Nor would Neuralink! This is Reddit-level delusion right here. Please don't bring that here.
    - mrguyorama 2y ago
      I know people this paralyzed. The concerns they have are usually more "How will I pay rent next month" and "how do I not get such bad bed sores" How much do you think Neuralink is going to cost? How will people who can't get around on their own pay that? How are people who can't work going to pay that? I don't know why supporters of all these things are so unable to view the whole situation. Musk doesn't want to pay taxes to a government that will support these disabled people. Musk doesn't want to support these disabled people. They are literally pawns for PR to him. Musk doesn't want to advance the HUMAN RACE. Musk wants to advance CERTAIN PEOPLE.
      - ben_w 2y ago
        To add to what you say: > Musk doesn't want to advance the HUMAN RACE. Musk wants to advance CERTAIN PEOPLE. I think he can't tell the difference between those certain people and the human race as a whole. Trans people in particular would be the obvious example of his failure here — ironically, given how much inspiration he's taken from a fictional universe where people can change physical gender by thinking about it a bit and waiting a few months. It's… not intended as a compliment when I say he "seems sincere" about wanting to advance the human race when it comes with this caveat. Quite the opposite. Likewise given what else he's "seemed sincere" about in the past and hasn't manifested.
- fpgaminer 2y ago
  [flagged]
- jedimastert 2y ago
  Why should we believe that he is not just straight up a lying or hiding some kind of fatal flaw? He is intentionally and systematically dismantling any regulatory or enforcement bodies that would hold him accountable or investigate his claims
OsrsNeedsf2P 2y ago
The article shows a video of Noland, paralyzed from the shoulders down, playing Polytopia. It's great to be fully able-bodied and mock Elon Musk, but for someone to go from using a mouth stylus to playing Polytopia via telepathy is very cool and should be celebrated.
- walrus01 2y ago
  There is more than one organization/company in the world working on human-computer assistive interfaces for the paralyzed. For instance: https://www.news-medical.net/news/20230824/Brain-computer-interface-enables-woman-with-severe-paralysis-to-speak-through-digital-avatar.aspx https://www.news-medical.net/news/20230824/Brain-computer-in... https://news.brown.edu/articles/2012/05/braingate2 https://news.brown.edu/articles/2012/05/braingate2 https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/STROKEAHA.123.037719 https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/STROKEAHA.123.037719 If you google "BCI brain computer interface paralyzed" you will find a wealth of researchers and organizations working on it which are not Neuralink.
  - aetherson 2y ago
    Great. Happy to celebrate them too.
  - kfajdsl 2y ago
    Sure, but have any made as much progress as Neuralink? Not a rhetorical, genuinely asking as someone who doesn't know much about this field. Though, even if others have, isn't this kind of technological achievement something to be lauded regardless of who owns the company that did it?
    - Veserv 2y ago
      Yes: https://www.youtube.com/@BCIcanDoBetter https://www.youtube.com/@BCIcanDoBetter Shaking President Obama's hand with "touch feedback" in 2016: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itkgmMLi7l4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itkgmMLi7l4 Eating a taco in 2018: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUjfA78FuZM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUjfA78FuZM Robot arm in 2018: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjFr0rnbT24 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjFr0rnbT24 Playing Final Fantasy 14 with a BCI in 2019: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjNHkRH0Dus https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjNHkRH0Dus Non-invasive robot arm control in 2011: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eOSlzDdOpg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eOSlzDdOpg Non-invasive robot arm control in 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asDwupMbE2I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asDwupMbE2I Speech/voice generation in 2024: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8frSsvwPp4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8frSsvwPp4 The technology to do these sorts of things as proof-of-concepts is fairly old. You do not see widespread deployment because brain surgery betas are not a very good idea. There is insufficient evidence the technology is mature or safe enough to support full-scale deployment. A common class of problem being brain scarring on the invasive insertions that reduce efficacy of the implant requiring further damaging brain surgery to remove the implant in a few years. When you have insufficiently mature technology for deployment you optimize for research. For that, you only need enough to saturate your researchers with data and well-designed tests which is usually achieved with only a small number of units. This is similar to the reason why you only need a few prototype cars even when you are going to make millions of them. If you are not deploying, then you do not need a lot to saturate your design/development process and making a bunch of each half-baked version prior to the final release candidate is a waste of time. When the technology is minimally adequate, then you scale up. In contrast, deploying middling quantities of proof-of-concept versions as if that "tests" anything is a recipe for a slow-burning disaster. Nobody else is "trying to compete" on who can deploy more because competing on who can deploy more half-baked brain implants would be unethical.
IncreasePosts 2y ago
[flagged]
bloopernova 2y ago
I'm reminded of The Diamond Age novel, where a character hears about someone who had an implant which was hacked. If I recall correctly, the hack caused the implant to display an advertisement in a different language at the edge of their vision. That seems pretty benign compared to what a neural implant could be made to do to someone.
- tialaramex 2y ago
  In Iain M Banks' Culture novels there's a ship (the General Systems Vehicle "Grey Area", but most often called "Meatfucker" by other ships) which has converted its interior into a museum of torture devices. Lots of stuff we'd recognise, but one we wouldn't - a Neural Lace. Almost all Culture citizens have one, it's typically implanted in early adulthood and grows next to your brain. A Culture Citizen touring the museum is confused, why does the Grey Area have a Neural Lace ? Well of course the device doesn't have to be programmed to be controlled by the host, does it ? Torture entirely by manipulating the compute substrate your mind runs on would be effective† and yet very easy to do... so this is in fact just another torture device. † Effective in the sense that it would inflict needless misery on people, that's what torture is actually for, it's not an effective interrogation strategy and never has been.
- marcus_holmes 2y ago
  > That seems pretty benign compared to what a neural implant could be made to do to someone. Black Mirror: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_Against_Fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_Against_Fire just as an example
ben_w 2y ago
"Mind virus" has a whole extra dimension when IoT is hardwired to your brain.
- mr_sturd 2y ago
  [flagged]

ivraatiems 2y ago

If it was that or be paralyzed for the rest of your life, would you at least consider it? I don't like Musk and I find Neuralink spooky in terms of their overall goals, but it's hard to deny how much this invention helps people.

ben_w 2y ago
Given the security track record of software in general, not even specifically those of Musk's companies but more broadly zero-days in all the major platforms, I would worry about a scenario half way between the plot of the film Upgrade and the long-standing trope of using hypnosis to turn someone into an unwitting assassin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upgrade_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upgrade_(film)
- tmnvdb 2y ago
  It seems easy to worry about somewhat far-fetched scenarios like this when one is not paralyzed and thus not making a trade-off between risks and a fully paralyzed life.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    The tech itself is far-fetched; that hackers exploit vulnerabilities in every system is not, rather it is so common you can measure attempts in Herz.
    - tmnvdb 2y ago
      You have again ignored the trade-off in your word-play.
      - computerthings 2y ago
        If it would make the greed and exploitation that form people like Musk go away without a trace and forever, I'd happily to be paralyzed for the rest of my life. Nobody would even have to know and thank me for it, as long as I knew... I'd watch humanity flourish on TV and cry tears of happiness. Even the best version of my best life is still just 1 life.
        tmnvdb 2y ago
        It is very brave of you to make this totally hypothetical sacrifce for us - only in your mind of course.
        computerthings 2y ago
        > If it was that or be paralyzed for the rest of your life, would you at least consider it? It's all hypothetical anyway, what's your deal? Are you saying the totally hypothetical life changing cure is something to be impressed by so much, that the real suffering caused by those pursuing it is to be ignored? Ignoring the real suffering for some hypothetical deus ex machina is very cowardly, and if my hypothetical sacrifice reminded you of that, that's fine. "If Elon Musk gave a shit about anything than profit, and knew his ass from his elbow, and this tech was feasible, and you were paralyzed, would you do it?" He doesn't, he doesn't, it may not be, and I'm not, so the question is moot. But it's very scientific to ask, and a great way to navigate such society impacting questions, thanks!
        try_the_bass 2y ago
        Yikes dude. Neither SpaceX nor Tesla would exist if he only cared about profit. Nor would Neuralink! This is Reddit-level delusion right here. Please don't bring that here.
  - mrguyorama 2y ago
    I know people this paralyzed. The concerns they have are usually more "How will I pay rent next month" and "how do I not get such bad bed sores" How much do you think Neuralink is going to cost? How will people who can't get around on their own pay that? How are people who can't work going to pay that? I don't know why supporters of all these things are so unable to view the whole situation. Musk doesn't want to pay taxes to a government that will support these disabled people. Musk doesn't want to support these disabled people. They are literally pawns for PR to him. Musk doesn't want to advance the HUMAN RACE. Musk wants to advance CERTAIN PEOPLE.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      To add to what you say: > Musk doesn't want to advance the HUMAN RACE. Musk wants to advance CERTAIN PEOPLE. I think he can't tell the difference between those certain people and the human race as a whole. Trans people in particular would be the obvious example of his failure here — ironically, given how much inspiration he's taken from a fictional universe where people can change physical gender by thinking about it a bit and waiting a few months. It's… not intended as a compliment when I say he "seems sincere" about wanting to advance the human race when it comes with this caveat. Quite the opposite. Likewise given what else he's "seemed sincere" about in the past and hasn't manifested.
fpgaminer 2y ago
[flagged]
jedimastert 2y ago
Why should we believe that he is not just straight up a lying or hiding some kind of fatal flaw? He is intentionally and systematically dismantling any regulatory or enforcement bodies that would hold him accountable or investigate his claims

OsrsNeedsf2P 2y ago

The article shows a video of Noland, paralyzed from the shoulders down, playing Polytopia. It's great to be fully able-bodied and mock Elon Musk, but for someone to go from using a mouth stylus to playing Polytopia via telepathy is very cool and should be celebrated.

walrus01 2y ago
There is more than one organization/company in the world working on human-computer assistive interfaces for the paralyzed. For instance: https://www.news-medical.net/news/20230824/Brain-computer-interface-enables-woman-with-severe-paralysis-to-speak-through-digital-avatar.aspx https://www.news-medical.net/news/20230824/Brain-computer-in... https://news.brown.edu/articles/2012/05/braingate2 https://news.brown.edu/articles/2012/05/braingate2 https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/STROKEAHA.123.037719 https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/STROKEAHA.123.037719 If you google "BCI brain computer interface paralyzed" you will find a wealth of researchers and organizations working on it which are not Neuralink.
- aetherson 2y ago
  Great. Happy to celebrate them too.
- kfajdsl 2y ago
  Sure, but have any made as much progress as Neuralink? Not a rhetorical, genuinely asking as someone who doesn't know much about this field. Though, even if others have, isn't this kind of technological achievement something to be lauded regardless of who owns the company that did it?
  - Veserv 2y ago
    Yes: https://www.youtube.com/@BCIcanDoBetter https://www.youtube.com/@BCIcanDoBetter Shaking President Obama's hand with "touch feedback" in 2016: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itkgmMLi7l4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itkgmMLi7l4 Eating a taco in 2018: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUjfA78FuZM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUjfA78FuZM Robot arm in 2018: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjFr0rnbT24 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjFr0rnbT24 Playing Final Fantasy 14 with a BCI in 2019: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjNHkRH0Dus https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjNHkRH0Dus Non-invasive robot arm control in 2011: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eOSlzDdOpg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eOSlzDdOpg Non-invasive robot arm control in 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asDwupMbE2I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asDwupMbE2I Speech/voice generation in 2024: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8frSsvwPp4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8frSsvwPp4 The technology to do these sorts of things as proof-of-concepts is fairly old. You do not see widespread deployment because brain surgery betas are not a very good idea. There is insufficient evidence the technology is mature or safe enough to support full-scale deployment. A common class of problem being brain scarring on the invasive insertions that reduce efficacy of the implant requiring further damaging brain surgery to remove the implant in a few years. When you have insufficiently mature technology for deployment you optimize for research. For that, you only need enough to saturate your researchers with data and well-designed tests which is usually achieved with only a small number of units. This is similar to the reason why you only need a few prototype cars even when you are going to make millions of them. If you are not deploying, then you do not need a lot to saturate your design/development process and making a bunch of each half-baked version prior to the final release candidate is a waste of time. When the technology is minimally adequate, then you scale up. In contrast, deploying middling quantities of proof-of-concept versions as if that "tests" anything is a recipe for a slow-burning disaster. Nobody else is "trying to compete" on who can deploy more because competing on who can deploy more half-baked brain implants would be unethical.

IncreasePosts 2y ago

[flagged]

bloopernova 2y ago

I'm reminded of The Diamond Age novel, where a character hears about someone who had an implant which was hacked. If I recall correctly, the hack caused the implant to display an advertisement in a different language at the edge of their vision. That seems pretty benign compared to what a neural implant could be made to do to someone.

tialaramex 2y ago
In Iain M Banks' Culture novels there's a ship (the General Systems Vehicle "Grey Area", but most often called "Meatfucker" by other ships) which has converted its interior into a museum of torture devices. Lots of stuff we'd recognise, but one we wouldn't - a Neural Lace. Almost all Culture citizens have one, it's typically implanted in early adulthood and grows next to your brain. A Culture Citizen touring the museum is confused, why does the Grey Area have a Neural Lace ? Well of course the device doesn't have to be programmed to be controlled by the host, does it ? Torture entirely by manipulating the compute substrate your mind runs on would be effective† and yet very easy to do... so this is in fact just another torture device. † Effective in the sense that it would inflict needless misery on people, that's what torture is actually for, it's not an effective interrogation strategy and never has been.
marcus_holmes 2y ago
> That seems pretty benign compared to what a neural implant could be made to do to someone. Black Mirror: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_Against_Fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_Against_Fire just as an example

ben_w 2y ago

"Mind virus" has a whole extra dimension when IoT is hardwired to your brain.

mr_sturd 2y ago
[flagged]