5 ms·

What is wild to me about that, is that there is a huge untapped market for 1 man builds. If I can go out and build a house twice a year for 150-200k each, and s

What is wild to me about that, is that there is a huge untapped market for 1 man builds. If I can go out and build a house twice a year for 150-200k each, and sell them for 400-500k, then I'm way ahead of what I would get as a remote developer. And 400-500 is conservative, in the right market, 600-700. What bothers me is gatekeeping the capital to do this, as well as the "apprenticeship" requirements to get your gen con license. It would solve two problems simultaneously - something laid off engineers can easily do (they are problem solvers and fast learners). I'm building my own house, and it's ridiculously easy (not all parts). I hope to build more after and sell them.

nancyminusone 2y ago
If that's what's bothering you, there's no way in hell I'd hire you to build a house.
- quesera 2y ago
  That's unnecessarily hostile. House building is not that difficult. And literally zero of the licensed trades (plumbing, electrical, HVAC, etc) cannot be learned by a smart and motivated person in 1-2 months at most, instead of the multiple years (each, nonconcurrently) required for apprentice, journeyman, and eventual master licensing. I've built three houses. I subbed out the work that was required by local regs (this varies by jurisdiction and year), and did the work myself, with inspection where available, wherever possible. Not difficult at all.
  - hobs 2y ago
    I would not want a house wired by a 60 day electrician, that's for sure. I don't think I'd want a flood done by the 60 day plumber either, but those are the only two trades I am familiar enough with to be aghast by this comment.
    - quesera 2y ago
      I'm sure that's true. And it means that you do not know how to do electrical or plumbing work. That's fine! But take it from someone who does: it does not take years of training to be excellent at it. Household electric and plumbing is extremely straightforward. Commercial can be much more complicated! And if you run into any semi-complicated stuff, like say a bathroom below grade where you need a toilet to flush uphill ... you learn it from the vast resources available, or you call a plumber for that bit. Simple. Similarly, if you ever are not 100% certain of your own work, you call a licensed tradesman for the inspection. Note that this is not always allowed -- but where it is, everyone agrees that it makes total sense.
      - hondo77 2y ago
        Household electric doesn't necessarily take years but it takes longer than 60 days of YouTube videos.
        quesera 2y ago
        I learned it in a few days of work. You could too. I don't recommend YouTube though! The most complicated thing is knowing the code, which boils down to just a handful of simple rules for residential stuff. Most importantly: look it up, don't guess. There's a right way to do everything, and it's never the hard way. There is very little variance or judgement call involved, the code is quite clear and specific. Doing it right might take additional materials or time though, and that's fine.
        XorNot 2y ago
        Just want to say the push back you're getting on this topic is one I've experienced everywhere - the actual work of the trades is basically treated as an unknowable black magic which only it's arcane practitioners can do. Which I think is partly held up essentially by the "dodgy tradie" stories which are routinely passed around but get re-interpreted as "it's very easy to do <obvious stupid thing>" when the stupid thing is something like "don't do a wire run from 10 short pieces of wire you have lying around" or "PVC pipes need to be glued together to not leak".
  - nancyminusone 2y ago
    Of course it's not hard, licences are not awarded based on how hard something is, they are supposed to be awarded for competence. Anyone can and should be able to build their own house (I have done so myself), but if you ask for someone else to depend on your work, you had better prove it.
    - almosthere 2y ago
      It's called passing inspections. Which you should know if you had actually built your own house.
      - ty6853 2y ago
        Not always required. I recently built a house, I did not get anything but septic inspected.
        quesera 2y ago
        I'll guess that was in a rural area in the US West? The further east and urban you go, the more rules you have to follow. This is, ultimately, sensible.
        ty6853 2y ago
        Yes. Although there are a few urban areas without inspection. You could build in a burrow near a city in Alaska without even a permit, normally. When they finally outlaw me from building in the west maybe that will be my next stop...
    - quesera 2y ago
      But licenses are not awarded based on competence. They are awarded based on years of service as an apprentice and a journeyman to a master, who is effectively your pimp until you become a master yourself. Guess who certifies master tradesmen? They guy who prefers to have you working for him instead of competing with him. It's a racket. There's some logic behind it, but less than you'd think. Becoming fully competent to plumb or wire a house takes a few weeks of instruction. If that. It's just not difficult to become competent. It takes a bit longer to get fast though! I would fully support a certification process that allows you to demonstrate your competence in a written and practical exam in front of experts who have no stake in your success or failure. But that is not the way it works. (Actually, there are a few programs where you can do this for some work that would otherwise require a formal license. Lead paint remediation, of low or medium-risk surfaces, is one of them.)
- carlosjobim 2y ago
  Any man who is unable to learn to build a house is far behind the average in talent. Everybody used to build their own houses.
  - harimau777 2y ago
    I think that may be due to differences in building standards between then and now. For example, fire was a much greater risk in previous generations.
    - potato3732842 2y ago
      It's not that buildings burn that much less readily today. It's that in the past they caught fire way more often. The plethora of wood stoves, lanterns for light, matches for smoking, etc, etc, had more to to with it than anything else.
  - 8bitsrule 2y ago
    In the US here was a decades-long period when you could buy a set of books for next-to-nothing (from Audel; most are now public domain) that would fill you in on most details of most trades. You (along with friends and relatives) could do the parts you understood and farm out the rest. My dad (Navy electrician) built his own house with help from a Navy friend (carpenter). It sold a half-century later for 5 times what it cost him. The stucco exterior (whoever did it) lasted with zero fails in a climate that varied from -30F to +90F.
- almosthere 2y ago
  Most people in those individual trades hired by D.R. Horton are doing things as fast as possible with the cheapest materials. I personally would want a person that is being paid very well that oversaw every nail, every wire going into that house. But :shrug: I don't mind you not being my customer. I will give my meticulously installed kiln dried studs/plates, zip sheathing, rockwool, interior rockwool, exterior rockwool jacket and james hardie fireproof house to someone that appreciates it!
- ty6853 2y ago
  That's not how one off man and a truck builds normally work. Its usually only viable as a business when doing owner/builder on your own dime then flipping it and repeat. Clients don't want to wait years for one man, nor will banks, but someone will almost certainly buy even a half ass built house upon completion. Sometimes you also see tradesman do this during down seasons, as it gives them a steady flow of stuff to do that they can complete almost as slow as they like then flip when done. The buyer likely won't have any insight into the personal motivations of the builder, or what bothers them.
bongodongobob 2y ago
That's hilarious. I'd rather hire a team of people that have specialized teams and have built 1000s of houses, not a guy that built one and thinks he's really good at it, sorry.
- _carbyau_ 2y ago
  I understand the point of specialisation/efficiency etc. The concern I have is that of conflicting motives. A person who builds their own house will care about what they built. A specialised team will care to get paid and know all the corners to cut to get the job done to the minimum standard. What kind of house do you want? One built robustly with care? Or one built to minimum standard? Not everyone wants minimum standard.
  - bongodongobob 2y ago
    It just sounds like you don't know how construction works.
    - _carbyau_ 2y ago
      It just sounds like you don't know how people work. As some of the other "I build my own house" commenters here have mentioned, nothing stops them from hiring people when they want and specifying higher than code minimums. Building your own house doesn't mean you have to do absolutely everything even when it doesn't make sense because someone else has the tools to do it better. But it does mean they have the choice.
      - bongodongobob 2y ago
        I work for a national construction company. You saying "construction not done diy = bad quality" makes you an absolute clown dude, just stop. There are guys working here that have been tradesman before you were born. The arrogance to say you can do it better is astonishing.
        2y ago
loa_in_ 2y ago
It's the same logic as people doing machineworking projects on YouTube. Things thought crazy, but not so crazy after all, fascinating instead. Going off the beaten path might be expensive at first, but the payoff is much better too. Emanating inspiration lasts for ages and is immeasurable in value.

nancyminusone 2y ago

If that's what's bothering you, there's no way in hell I'd hire you to build a house.

quesera 2y ago
That's unnecessarily hostile. House building is not that difficult. And literally zero of the licensed trades (plumbing, electrical, HVAC, etc) cannot be learned by a smart and motivated person in 1-2 months at most, instead of the multiple years (each, nonconcurrently) required for apprentice, journeyman, and eventual master licensing. I've built three houses. I subbed out the work that was required by local regs (this varies by jurisdiction and year), and did the work myself, with inspection where available, wherever possible. Not difficult at all.
- hobs 2y ago
  I would not want a house wired by a 60 day electrician, that's for sure. I don't think I'd want a flood done by the 60 day plumber either, but those are the only two trades I am familiar enough with to be aghast by this comment.
  - quesera 2y ago
    I'm sure that's true. And it means that you do not know how to do electrical or plumbing work. That's fine! But take it from someone who does: it does not take years of training to be excellent at it. Household electric and plumbing is extremely straightforward. Commercial can be much more complicated! And if you run into any semi-complicated stuff, like say a bathroom below grade where you need a toilet to flush uphill ... you learn it from the vast resources available, or you call a plumber for that bit. Simple. Similarly, if you ever are not 100% certain of your own work, you call a licensed tradesman for the inspection. Note that this is not always allowed -- but where it is, everyone agrees that it makes total sense.
    - hondo77 2y ago
      Household electric doesn't necessarily take years but it takes longer than 60 days of YouTube videos.
      - quesera 2y ago
        I learned it in a few days of work. You could too. I don't recommend YouTube though! The most complicated thing is knowing the code, which boils down to just a handful of simple rules for residential stuff. Most importantly: look it up, don't guess. There's a right way to do everything, and it's never the hard way. There is very little variance or judgement call involved, the code is quite clear and specific. Doing it right might take additional materials or time though, and that's fine.
        XorNot 2y ago
        Just want to say the push back you're getting on this topic is one I've experienced everywhere - the actual work of the trades is basically treated as an unknowable black magic which only it's arcane practitioners can do. Which I think is partly held up essentially by the "dodgy tradie" stories which are routinely passed around but get re-interpreted as "it's very easy to do <obvious stupid thing>" when the stupid thing is something like "don't do a wire run from 10 short pieces of wire you have lying around" or "PVC pipes need to be glued together to not leak".
- nancyminusone 2y ago
  Of course it's not hard, licences are not awarded based on how hard something is, they are supposed to be awarded for competence. Anyone can and should be able to build their own house (I have done so myself), but if you ask for someone else to depend on your work, you had better prove it.
  - almosthere 2y ago
    It's called passing inspections. Which you should know if you had actually built your own house.
    - ty6853 2y ago
      Not always required. I recently built a house, I did not get anything but septic inspected.
      - quesera 2y ago
        I'll guess that was in a rural area in the US West? The further east and urban you go, the more rules you have to follow. This is, ultimately, sensible.
        ty6853 2y ago
        Yes. Although there are a few urban areas without inspection. You could build in a burrow near a city in Alaska without even a permit, normally. When they finally outlaw me from building in the west maybe that will be my next stop...
  - quesera 2y ago
    But licenses are not awarded based on competence. They are awarded based on years of service as an apprentice and a journeyman to a master, who is effectively your pimp until you become a master yourself. Guess who certifies master tradesmen? They guy who prefers to have you working for him instead of competing with him. It's a racket. There's some logic behind it, but less than you'd think. Becoming fully competent to plumb or wire a house takes a few weeks of instruction. If that. It's just not difficult to become competent. It takes a bit longer to get fast though! I would fully support a certification process that allows you to demonstrate your competence in a written and practical exam in front of experts who have no stake in your success or failure. But that is not the way it works. (Actually, there are a few programs where you can do this for some work that would otherwise require a formal license. Lead paint remediation, of low or medium-risk surfaces, is one of them.)
carlosjobim 2y ago
Any man who is unable to learn to build a house is far behind the average in talent. Everybody used to build their own houses.
- harimau777 2y ago
  I think that may be due to differences in building standards between then and now. For example, fire was a much greater risk in previous generations.
  - potato3732842 2y ago
    It's not that buildings burn that much less readily today. It's that in the past they caught fire way more often. The plethora of wood stoves, lanterns for light, matches for smoking, etc, etc, had more to to with it than anything else.
- 8bitsrule 2y ago
  In the US here was a decades-long period when you could buy a set of books for next-to-nothing (from Audel; most are now public domain) that would fill you in on most details of most trades. You (along with friends and relatives) could do the parts you understood and farm out the rest. My dad (Navy electrician) built his own house with help from a Navy friend (carpenter). It sold a half-century later for 5 times what it cost him. The stucco exterior (whoever did it) lasted with zero fails in a climate that varied from -30F to +90F.
almosthere 2y ago
Most people in those individual trades hired by D.R. Horton are doing things as fast as possible with the cheapest materials. I personally would want a person that is being paid very well that oversaw every nail, every wire going into that house. But :shrug: I don't mind you not being my customer. I will give my meticulously installed kiln dried studs/plates, zip sheathing, rockwool, interior rockwool, exterior rockwool jacket and james hardie fireproof house to someone that appreciates it!
ty6853 2y ago
That's not how one off man and a truck builds normally work. Its usually only viable as a business when doing owner/builder on your own dime then flipping it and repeat. Clients don't want to wait years for one man, nor will banks, but someone will almost certainly buy even a half ass built house upon completion. Sometimes you also see tradesman do this during down seasons, as it gives them a steady flow of stuff to do that they can complete almost as slow as they like then flip when done. The buyer likely won't have any insight into the personal motivations of the builder, or what bothers them.

bongodongobob 2y ago

That's hilarious. I'd rather hire a team of people that have specialized teams and have built 1000s of houses, not a guy that built one and thinks he's really good at it, sorry.

_carbyau_ 2y ago
I understand the point of specialisation/efficiency etc. The concern I have is that of conflicting motives. A person who builds their own house will care about what they built. A specialised team will care to get paid and know all the corners to cut to get the job done to the minimum standard. What kind of house do you want? One built robustly with care? Or one built to minimum standard? Not everyone wants minimum standard.
- bongodongobob 2y ago
  It just sounds like you don't know how construction works.
  - _carbyau_ 2y ago
    It just sounds like you don't know how people work. As some of the other "I build my own house" commenters here have mentioned, nothing stops them from hiring people when they want and specifying higher than code minimums. Building your own house doesn't mean you have to do absolutely everything even when it doesn't make sense because someone else has the tools to do it better. But it does mean they have the choice.
    - bongodongobob 2y ago
      I work for a national construction company. You saying "construction not done diy = bad quality" makes you an absolute clown dude, just stop. There are guys working here that have been tradesman before you were born. The arrogance to say you can do it better is astonishing.
      - 2y ago

loa_in_ 2y ago

It's the same logic as people doing machineworking projects on YouTube. Things thought crazy, but not so crazy after all, fascinating instead. Going off the beaten path might be expensive at first, but the payoff is much better too. Emanating inspiration lasts for ages and is immeasurable in value.