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I don't know enough to agree or disagree with the person you're replying to. But I assume the logic would be that if Linus doesn't approve then he should have s

by arlort 2y ago

I don't know enough to agree or disagree with the person you're replying to. But I assume the logic would be that if Linus doesn't approve then he should have shut the discussion down long ago or at least do it now without half measures

timewizard 2y ago
> then he should have shut the discussion down long ago It's interesting that people expect Linus to simultaneously chill out and be more inclusive while at the same time acting like a dictator over the entirety of the project. In any case, perhaps it's worthwhile to remember where it started, and what the attitudes were at the time [1]. It was an experiment. Experiments sometimes fail or reveal themselves to not lead anywhere useful. The choices were to let that experiment happen on the actual kernel or force the rust people to fork some version of the kernel and instantly be left behind. It clearly wasn't an easy choice and I can only imagine the uproar from the rust community if he then did what you suggest today. So, that leaves us with the question, what if he's decided it's no longer worth it? What then should we do with a mostly failed kernel experiment? [1]: https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-on-where-rust-will-fit-into-linux/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-on-where-rust-w...
- arlort 2y ago
  > It's interesting that people expect Linus to simultaneously chill out and be more inclusive while at the same time acting like a dictator over the entirety of the project. It's not particularly interesting that different people have different expectations on different issues
  - timewizard 2y ago
    It's interesting that you moved the goalposts to an entirely different point. I'm clearly talking about the overall "community," which whether you care about it or not, has been used as a point to successfully force Linus' hand before. In other words, there are clearly politics involved, so perhaps that should be taken into consideration before making a blithe point about a complex human organizational issue?
- okanat 2y ago
  You can be decisive and inclusive without being a prick who is personally targeting developers and publicly demeaning. Linus was like that. No sane developer wants that. A true inclusive environment also requires leaders to tell rowdy maintainers calling people "cancer" to know their place and watch their tone. It is not really a good experiment in technical qualification nor in developer collaboration, if the leadership lets individuals to constantly blockade work, isn't it?
  - gauntletstricky 2y ago
    archive.ph/rESxe >Thinking of literally starting a Linux maintainer hall of shame. Not for public consumption, but to help new kernel contributors know what to expect. >Every experienced kernel submitter has this in their head, maybe it should be finally written down. https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/CAHk-=wi=ZmP2=TmHsFSUGq8vUZAOWWSK1vrJarMaOhReDRQRYQ@mail.gmail.com/ https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/CAHk-=wi=ZmP2=TmHsFSU... >If shaming on social media does not work, then tell me what does, because I'm out of ideas. Hector Martin went way beyond being a "prick". And Linus Torvalds told him to stop it. Have you considered that the problem may be the people that are making "hall of shame" lists of people and doing social media brigading? Worsening matters, Steve Klabnik (major Rust community figure, has run @rustlang, primary author of the Rust Programming Language Book, former Rust Core member, and moderator of r/rust), have been busy here and on reddit making excuses for Hector Martin. What kind of community is the Rust community?
    - steveklabnik 2y ago
      I have never moderated /r/rust. I haven’t been involved with the Rust Project for years, I speak only for myself. I said that I feel for Hector, he’s clearly hurting, and that I hope he feels better. I’ve said I don’t want to pass judgement on if what he did is right or wrong, because I’m trying to stick to facts here. I’ve said that I don’t think what he did was particularly effective. That’s not making excuses. Hector’s actions aren’t the main point of this story. It’s not even his patch!
      - 2y ago

by arlort 2y ago

timewizard 2y ago

> then he should have shut the discussion down long ago It's interesting that people expect Linus to simultaneously chill out and be more inclusive while at the same time acting like a dictator over the entirety of the project. In any case, perhaps it's worthwhile to remember where it started, and what the attitudes were at the time [1]. It was an experiment. Experiments sometimes fail or reveal themselves to not lead anywhere useful. The choices were to let that experiment happen on the actual kernel or force the rust people to fork some version of the kernel and instantly be left behind. It clearly wasn't an easy choice and I can only imagine the uproar from the rust community if he then did what you suggest today. So, that leaves us with the question, what if he's decided it's no longer worth it? What then should we do with a mostly failed kernel experiment? [1]: https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-on-where-rust-will-fit-into-linux/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-on-where-rust-w...

arlort 2y ago
> It's interesting that people expect Linus to simultaneously chill out and be more inclusive while at the same time acting like a dictator over the entirety of the project. It's not particularly interesting that different people have different expectations on different issues
- timewizard 2y ago
  It's interesting that you moved the goalposts to an entirely different point. I'm clearly talking about the overall "community," which whether you care about it or not, has been used as a point to successfully force Linus' hand before. In other words, there are clearly politics involved, so perhaps that should be taken into consideration before making a blithe point about a complex human organizational issue?
okanat 2y ago
You can be decisive and inclusive without being a prick who is personally targeting developers and publicly demeaning. Linus was like that. No sane developer wants that. A true inclusive environment also requires leaders to tell rowdy maintainers calling people "cancer" to know their place and watch their tone. It is not really a good experiment in technical qualification nor in developer collaboration, if the leadership lets individuals to constantly blockade work, isn't it?
- gauntletstricky 2y ago
  archive.ph/rESxe >Thinking of literally starting a Linux maintainer hall of shame. Not for public consumption, but to help new kernel contributors know what to expect. >Every experienced kernel submitter has this in their head, maybe it should be finally written down. https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/CAHk-=wi=ZmP2=TmHsFSUGq8vUZAOWWSK1vrJarMaOhReDRQRYQ@mail.gmail.com/ https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/CAHk-=wi=ZmP2=TmHsFSU... >If shaming on social media does not work, then tell me what does, because I'm out of ideas. Hector Martin went way beyond being a "prick". And Linus Torvalds told him to stop it. Have you considered that the problem may be the people that are making "hall of shame" lists of people and doing social media brigading? Worsening matters, Steve Klabnik (major Rust community figure, has run @rustlang, primary author of the Rust Programming Language Book, former Rust Core member, and moderator of r/rust), have been busy here and on reddit making excuses for Hector Martin. What kind of community is the Rust community?
  - steveklabnik 2y ago
    I have never moderated /r/rust. I haven’t been involved with the Rust Project for years, I speak only for myself. I said that I feel for Hector, he’s clearly hurting, and that I hope he feels better. I’ve said I don’t want to pass judgement on if what he did is right or wrong, because I’m trying to stick to facts here. I’ve said that I don’t think what he did was particularly effective. That’s not making excuses. Hector’s actions aren’t the main point of this story. It’s not even his patch!
    - 2y ago