10 ms·

I applaud the author for putting thought into how to design digital controls, in contrast to the "just put whatever garbage on a touch screen" strategy most car

by xp84 2y ago

I applaud the author for putting thought into how to design digital controls, in contrast to the "just put whatever garbage on a touch screen" strategy most carmakers do today. However, I still question the benefit of this complex, modal control (you have to press a single knob to "cycle between" multiple modes). My ancient, 2016 car features three knobs. This luxury allows me to, without looking, adjust any of three settings (temp, fan, air location), as well as a button which does each seat heater, without any "check what mode it's in, tap, look at the tiny screen, tap again if necessary" step. True, in this trim, my car does not have a thermostat mode, which in theory is useful, but it is so trivial to modulate the temperature based on "do I feel cold, hot or comfortable right now" and reaching over to twist one of the controls anyway, and even in the other car I have which has this mode, I frequently need to adjust things anyway, except in that car some of the functions require multiple mode changes on the touch screen and looking away from the road.

WildRyc 2y ago
The author is pretty clear that having more than two modes diminishes the usefulness of the interface. Three modes was complex enough that he redesigned it down. I've changed the channel tuner when I've reached for the volume knob. If the haptic feedback between the two is clearly different, that will help, no?
- layer8 2y ago
  Controls that require a feedback loop have more cognitive overhead than controls you can just use “blindly” (this includes not having to check for haptic feedback to test what mode it’s in) and from pure muscle memory. For example, you learn that your preferred volume when driving on a highway is at (say) the two o’clock position, and with time you’ll blindly turn the knob to that position without even consciously thinking about it. If, on the other hand, you “know” that the knob could be in a wrong mode, you’ll tend to hesitate when operating it because of that anticipation, having to check back whether the knob is indeed in the correct mode.
  - Animats 2y ago
    Right. This "smart" knob is symmetrical, with no pointer that you can feel before turning the knob. So it's hard to use without looking. This is inferior to a simple mechanical knob.
    - CRConrad 2y ago
      It's not infinitely rotatable, though, like some knobs are; TFA mentioned a 270° rotation range. So a pointer “beak” (or some other haptically recognisable asymmetry) should be easy to add.
      - Animats 2y ago
        It's infinitely rotatable unless the software tells the motor to push back. The encoder appears to be relative, rather than absolute, so the physical positioning at power-up is unknown. Thus, the physical knob can't have a physical pointer with consistent behavior. I have an LG washing machine with a knob like that. After power up, you have to turn it one notch before it lights up to indicate the current position, which is the default Normal cycle. So the knob has to be symmetrical, with no tactile pointer.
        CRConrad 2y ago
        > It's infinitely rotatable unless the software tells the motor to push back. Aha? OK, I read that wrong then.
  - ngcc_hk 2y ago
    The key is the blindly … driving is really a dangerous thing. Eye on as things happen. I still have a nightmare about the dog of my relative run to the road and get out between 2 parking cars. It is a miracle it was not killed. I would not be able to detect it if I doing all these knob and feedback thing. The old lady driving and stop in time in her old car … knobs and eye on help
oidar 2y ago
I agree. I don't want a "smart" knob. I'm dreading going car shopping sometime this next year. I anticipate having to rule out a large pool of cars to keep my controls navigable without looking.
- residentraspber 2y ago
  I've found one good solution to this problem (for AC, at least): go for a car with a good "auto" mode! I hardly ever touch my AC, I just leave it on auto and the car does the rest to get it to the right temperature as quickly as possible. I suspect this is what most automakers think the real solution should be, just make it easy enough to set a temp and leave the rest to the computer.
  - gertlex 2y ago
    That's a reasonable point. Too bad an auto mode for my music and podcasts (of varying volume; also varying with whether I have a passenger) is probably not a thing... On the other hand, my sense with how I use temperature control in my car is that most of my interactions are (a) set mode at start of driving (b) incrementally turn the temperature dial a notch or two without looking at it.
    - ssl-3 2y ago
      My current daily vehicle does a pretty fine job of figuring out what mode I want for HVAC. Sometimes, I do mash the defroster button when weather commands warm/dry air on the windshield and it's easy enough to find that with muscle memory. Otherwise, in normal seasonal weather, it works well and I don't change modes or temperature. Windows up, down, hot, cold, sunny, cloudy, dark, whatever -- it all works about the same. Previously, I drove an older version of the same vehicle. It also worked well until it forgot how to figure out what day it was due to a software issue. After that, it kind of had a mind of its own. (Now, a sane person would ask why that would have to do anything to do with HVAC performance. It gathered the current date, time, and position from GPS, the bearing from the nav's compass, and the solar intensity from a sensor on th dashboard. A bit of math and/or an almanac lookup later, and it also knows the position and angle of the sun relative to the car. So it knows when sunlight is streaming on through the driver's window, and adjusts automatically to compensate by providing relatively cool air from the dash vents only on that side. It also knows not to do this on a cloudy day as well as other things that seem obvious once a person starts thinking about them. Which is a magical kind of automation -- until the calendar is off by both years and months because Honda broke the clock and its understanding of the sun broke with it: https://didhondafixtheclocks.com/ https://didhondafixtheclocks.com/ )
groby_b 2y ago
There's also the fact that most thermostats do manage to keep the sensor input constant, but that's surprisingly uncorrelated with how you actually feel. (Often due to the slightly bonkers idea that single sensor, often not in any location the user is, will correctly reflect the actual environment) "Make it warmer/colder" is sufficient input and doesn't pretend a precision it doesn't have.
- benoliver999 2y ago
  Rolls Royce do this I think
dghlsakjg 2y ago
My 1997 Lexus has a knob that controls the digital climate control. Except that instead of a spinny position encoder, they used a knob with stops so you have tactile feedback for when the temperature is all the way up or down. This is the kind of detail that I love about a well engineered car.
- DigitalSea 2y ago
  My 2004 5 series BMW had this (it was called iDrive). A command style knob that could move on an axis of sorts (up and down, left, right). You could also press it in. I absolutely hated it.
  - CRConrad 2y ago
    That was among the first generations of iDrive. I was (and to some extent still am) skeptical, particularly given how overwhelmingly negative the reception was at the time. But, FWIW, the motoring press was later – as BMW apparently improved the system significantly – swayed to accept, and sometimes even praise, the iDrive. At least from about 2015-20, or possibly as early as 2010-15. Can't give any personal evaluation, as I've never (AFAICR) driven a BMW.
    - Royce-CMR 2y ago
      Small review, 2013 BMW 335xi (drove for a test drive). Loved iDrive. Remained my benchmark for car infotainment UI for 10+ years. The main thing, you could DRVIE the car, aggressively, and give commands to infotainment without missing a beat. Truly a lost art today. Fond memories.
      - getlawgdon 2y ago
        Aggressive BMW driver. You don't say.
    - Hamuko 2y ago
      The first iDrive version was CCC, and it was reviled back then and is still currently. I think the opinion shift happened with the CIC version, which started rolling out at around 2009 and had a massively different user interface. And you can tell that CIC was a much better system since the next version introduced around 2013, NBT, only tweaked the CIC UI instead of completely replacing it.
carabiner 2y ago
Toyota 3 knobs undefeated.
- contingencies 2y ago
  Simplicity: are they exactly the same knob, thus lowering ordering costs, shipping and receiving costs, inventory costs, supply chain costs, design costs, and error potential? Quite likely. This also allows upstream suppliers to double down on volume and work to lower costs at their end. Versus... the designer of a custom complex multi-part powered assembly (manufacturing cost not discussed, cleaning not discussed, visibility in varying light conditions not discussed) who has the fantasy that users want to squint at a tiny screen on a knob while driving, and that pushing all this and associated documentation down a global service network is going to come at an acceptable cost to users. This begs the question: who's the real knob?
  - carabiner 2y ago
    Yep same knobs: https://www.amazon.com/559050C010-Control-Compatible-55905-0C010-Conditioner/dp/B09TKCKFQV https://www.amazon.com/559050C010-Control-Compatible-55905-0...
- schiffern 2y ago
  The real luxury for me was four knobs (or often sliders). https://i.ytimg.com/vi/W9AjhGko2mA/maxresdefault.jpg https://i.ytimg.com/vi/W9AjhGko2mA/maxresdefault.jpg The fourth one controls recirculate, and it allowed you to set in-between positions between 100% recirculate and 100% fresh air. To simultaneously optimize pollution/humidity/CO2 I find I prefer about 80% recirculate and 20% fresh air, but achieving this configuration is impossible in most (all?) modern cars.
  - hammock 2y ago
    It is achievable in every car by cracking the window
    - 2y ago
s0rce 2y ago
I find the thermostat mode only works on overcast days or at night as the sun contributes so much feeling of warmth when driving (in California) that the heating and cooling thermostat doesn't work well.
- kdmtctl 2y ago
  As someone mentioned a Lexus in the thread, my memory popped up the fact that most expensive models have thermostat corrected for the sun position and probably current weather.
- Retric 2y ago
  A sun load sensor mostly solves this, they used to be a high end feature but it's becoming more common.
  - s0rce 2y ago
    Oh, neat, never knew about that!
  - nottorp 2y ago
    High end? It's on my 15 year old Suzuki. I only know that because the diagnostics told my mechanic it's broken and he replaced it once :) It may just not be advertised.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - Retric 2y ago
      Thus more common, it’s still not an every model of every manufacturer thing. Tracking incoming angle is also less common etc.
    - s0rce 2y ago
      I don't think my 15 year old Suzuki has it :(
conductr 2y ago
> "check what mode it's in, tap, look at the tiny screen, tap again if necessary" This is my concern as well. It's a perceived improvement in UI but still a loss over analog UX. I'll end up cranking the knob and wondering why my radio channels are rapidly changing when I wanted to adjust the volume. You're almost forced into retaining state of your knobs in your head if you want to do anything eyes-free. Eyes-free operations should be the ultimate goal, that's what we had with analog.
- genewitch 2y ago
  My Lexus has climate control up down and track selection up down in the same column within inches of eachother and I have to look every time. Even the fact there's a knob next to the track ones...
mhdhn 2y ago
Digital controls? Hell no. Just say no.
- brailsafe 2y ago
  Not even once
makeitdouble 2y ago
FTA > I discovered thermal comfort depends on four environmental factors: air temperature, heat radiation, airflow, and humidity. He's managing more variables than those handled by your three knobs, and also deals with seat temperature in his setting. You might not want any of the finer control, some don't even want climate control and will run with open windows in dead winter. But I see a lot of benefit of his approach for anyone who cares as much as him about climate control.
- rounce 2y ago
  A good interface would provide a helpful abstraction that allows the user to make clearer and faster decisions about those four variables rather than just exposing them directly to the user.
isolli 2y ago
Interesting comment regarding the lack of a thermostat. Sometimes, qualitative setting is better than quantitative. Precise temperature settings lead to overthinking and fiddling, in my experience. With qualitative settings, at most two interventions are necessary to reach a comfortable setting.
mihaaly 2y ago
I gave up on having decent and reliable design of controls in cars. Even if someone would come up with something having minimal (preferably zero) cognitive disruption that is easy to learn and used to, the constant self-forced and determined nervous pressure of providing new, and new, and very new, and revolutionary, and new revolutionary, and disruptive, will make me re-learn whatever new idea is forced on me with a new car. I dread replacing our 20 yo car. But we have to. Maybe - considering all other troubles with modern cars, like very poor computerization and inherent safety issues, optimization to the level of corruption or unreliability, sales hostility (subscription), nauseating design nightmares - better move to a city and country with decent mass transit system. Could be a win-win for us and the environment. For the missed cases there is taxi and rental. Car dominated societies are not nice to live in anyway.
- drdude 2y ago
  I gave up on cars in the US for few years now... I just bought a hyper electric escooter and use it to travel 60+/- miles per charge... no gas, no insurance, no maintenance (only the rare flats and brake pad changes), and no plate and safety/emission... etc etc. Buy once, use till the battery dies... rinse and repeat... gear is inconvenient though but can put up with it.
  - genewitch 2y ago
    Where I'm at there's a cross on the side of the highway every quarter mile or so to mark where people who decided to not use a car to commute that day are commemorated.

by xp84 2y ago

WildRyc 2y ago

The author is pretty clear that having more than two modes diminishes the usefulness of the interface. Three modes was complex enough that he redesigned it down. I've changed the channel tuner when I've reached for the volume knob. If the haptic feedback between the two is clearly different, that will help, no?

layer8 2y ago
Controls that require a feedback loop have more cognitive overhead than controls you can just use “blindly” (this includes not having to check for haptic feedback to test what mode it’s in) and from pure muscle memory. For example, you learn that your preferred volume when driving on a highway is at (say) the two o’clock position, and with time you’ll blindly turn the knob to that position without even consciously thinking about it. If, on the other hand, you “know” that the knob could be in a wrong mode, you’ll tend to hesitate when operating it because of that anticipation, having to check back whether the knob is indeed in the correct mode.
- Animats 2y ago
  Right. This "smart" knob is symmetrical, with no pointer that you can feel before turning the knob. So it's hard to use without looking. This is inferior to a simple mechanical knob.
  - CRConrad 2y ago
    It's not infinitely rotatable, though, like some knobs are; TFA mentioned a 270° rotation range. So a pointer “beak” (or some other haptically recognisable asymmetry) should be easy to add.
    - Animats 2y ago
      It's infinitely rotatable unless the software tells the motor to push back. The encoder appears to be relative, rather than absolute, so the physical positioning at power-up is unknown. Thus, the physical knob can't have a physical pointer with consistent behavior. I have an LG washing machine with a knob like that. After power up, you have to turn it one notch before it lights up to indicate the current position, which is the default Normal cycle. So the knob has to be symmetrical, with no tactile pointer.
      - CRConrad 2y ago
        > It's infinitely rotatable unless the software tells the motor to push back. Aha? OK, I read that wrong then.
- ngcc_hk 2y ago
  The key is the blindly … driving is really a dangerous thing. Eye on as things happen. I still have a nightmare about the dog of my relative run to the road and get out between 2 parking cars. It is a miracle it was not killed. I would not be able to detect it if I doing all these knob and feedback thing. The old lady driving and stop in time in her old car … knobs and eye on help

oidar 2y ago

I agree. I don't want a "smart" knob. I'm dreading going car shopping sometime this next year. I anticipate having to rule out a large pool of cars to keep my controls navigable without looking.

residentraspber 2y ago
I've found one good solution to this problem (for AC, at least): go for a car with a good "auto" mode! I hardly ever touch my AC, I just leave it on auto and the car does the rest to get it to the right temperature as quickly as possible. I suspect this is what most automakers think the real solution should be, just make it easy enough to set a temp and leave the rest to the computer.
- gertlex 2y ago
  That's a reasonable point. Too bad an auto mode for my music and podcasts (of varying volume; also varying with whether I have a passenger) is probably not a thing... On the other hand, my sense with how I use temperature control in my car is that most of my interactions are (a) set mode at start of driving (b) incrementally turn the temperature dial a notch or two without looking at it.
  - ssl-3 2y ago
    My current daily vehicle does a pretty fine job of figuring out what mode I want for HVAC. Sometimes, I do mash the defroster button when weather commands warm/dry air on the windshield and it's easy enough to find that with muscle memory. Otherwise, in normal seasonal weather, it works well and I don't change modes or temperature. Windows up, down, hot, cold, sunny, cloudy, dark, whatever -- it all works about the same. Previously, I drove an older version of the same vehicle. It also worked well until it forgot how to figure out what day it was due to a software issue. After that, it kind of had a mind of its own. (Now, a sane person would ask why that would have to do anything to do with HVAC performance. It gathered the current date, time, and position from GPS, the bearing from the nav's compass, and the solar intensity from a sensor on th dashboard. A bit of math and/or an almanac lookup later, and it also knows the position and angle of the sun relative to the car. So it knows when sunlight is streaming on through the driver's window, and adjusts automatically to compensate by providing relatively cool air from the dash vents only on that side. It also knows not to do this on a cloudy day as well as other things that seem obvious once a person starts thinking about them. Which is a magical kind of automation -- until the calendar is off by both years and months because Honda broke the clock and its understanding of the sun broke with it: https://didhondafixtheclocks.com/ https://didhondafixtheclocks.com/ )

groby_b 2y ago

There's also the fact that most thermostats do manage to keep the sensor input constant, but that's surprisingly uncorrelated with how you actually feel. (Often due to the slightly bonkers idea that single sensor, often not in any location the user is, will correctly reflect the actual environment) "Make it warmer/colder" is sufficient input and doesn't pretend a precision it doesn't have.

benoliver999 2y ago
Rolls Royce do this I think

dghlsakjg 2y ago

My 1997 Lexus has a knob that controls the digital climate control. Except that instead of a spinny position encoder, they used a knob with stops so you have tactile feedback for when the temperature is all the way up or down. This is the kind of detail that I love about a well engineered car.

DigitalSea 2y ago
My 2004 5 series BMW had this (it was called iDrive). A command style knob that could move on an axis of sorts (up and down, left, right). You could also press it in. I absolutely hated it.
- CRConrad 2y ago
  That was among the first generations of iDrive. I was (and to some extent still am) skeptical, particularly given how overwhelmingly negative the reception was at the time. But, FWIW, the motoring press was later – as BMW apparently improved the system significantly – swayed to accept, and sometimes even praise, the iDrive. At least from about 2015-20, or possibly as early as 2010-15. Can't give any personal evaluation, as I've never (AFAICR) driven a BMW.
  - Royce-CMR 2y ago
    Small review, 2013 BMW 335xi (drove for a test drive). Loved iDrive. Remained my benchmark for car infotainment UI for 10+ years. The main thing, you could DRVIE the car, aggressively, and give commands to infotainment without missing a beat. Truly a lost art today. Fond memories.
    - getlawgdon 2y ago
      Aggressive BMW driver. You don't say.
  - Hamuko 2y ago
    The first iDrive version was CCC, and it was reviled back then and is still currently. I think the opinion shift happened with the CIC version, which started rolling out at around 2009 and had a massively different user interface. And you can tell that CIC was a much better system since the next version introduced around 2013, NBT, only tweaked the CIC UI instead of completely replacing it.

carabiner 2y ago

Toyota 3 knobs undefeated.

contingencies 2y ago
Simplicity: are they exactly the same knob, thus lowering ordering costs, shipping and receiving costs, inventory costs, supply chain costs, design costs, and error potential? Quite likely. This also allows upstream suppliers to double down on volume and work to lower costs at their end. Versus... the designer of a custom complex multi-part powered assembly (manufacturing cost not discussed, cleaning not discussed, visibility in varying light conditions not discussed) who has the fantasy that users want to squint at a tiny screen on a knob while driving, and that pushing all this and associated documentation down a global service network is going to come at an acceptable cost to users. This begs the question: who's the real knob?
- carabiner 2y ago
  Yep same knobs: https://www.amazon.com/559050C010-Control-Compatible-55905-0C010-Conditioner/dp/B09TKCKFQV https://www.amazon.com/559050C010-Control-Compatible-55905-0...
schiffern 2y ago
The real luxury for me was four knobs (or often sliders). https://i.ytimg.com/vi/W9AjhGko2mA/maxresdefault.jpg https://i.ytimg.com/vi/W9AjhGko2mA/maxresdefault.jpg The fourth one controls recirculate, and it allowed you to set in-between positions between 100% recirculate and 100% fresh air. To simultaneously optimize pollution/humidity/CO2 I find I prefer about 80% recirculate and 20% fresh air, but achieving this configuration is impossible in most (all?) modern cars.
- hammock 2y ago
  It is achievable in every car by cracking the window
  - 2y ago

s0rce 2y ago

I find the thermostat mode only works on overcast days or at night as the sun contributes so much feeling of warmth when driving (in California) that the heating and cooling thermostat doesn't work well.

kdmtctl 2y ago
As someone mentioned a Lexus in the thread, my memory popped up the fact that most expensive models have thermostat corrected for the sun position and probably current weather.
Retric 2y ago
A sun load sensor mostly solves this, they used to be a high end feature but it's becoming more common.
- s0rce 2y ago
  Oh, neat, never knew about that!
- nottorp 2y ago
  High end? It's on my 15 year old Suzuki. I only know that because the diagnostics told my mechanic it's broken and he replaced it once :) It may just not be advertised.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - Retric 2y ago
    Thus more common, it’s still not an every model of every manufacturer thing. Tracking incoming angle is also less common etc.
  - s0rce 2y ago
    I don't think my 15 year old Suzuki has it :(

conductr 2y ago

> "check what mode it's in, tap, look at the tiny screen, tap again if necessary" This is my concern as well. It's a perceived improvement in UI but still a loss over analog UX. I'll end up cranking the knob and wondering why my radio channels are rapidly changing when I wanted to adjust the volume. You're almost forced into retaining state of your knobs in your head if you want to do anything eyes-free. Eyes-free operations should be the ultimate goal, that's what we had with analog.

genewitch 2y ago
My Lexus has climate control up down and track selection up down in the same column within inches of eachother and I have to look every time. Even the fact there's a knob next to the track ones...

mhdhn 2y ago

Digital controls? Hell no. Just say no.

brailsafe 2y ago
Not even once

makeitdouble 2y ago

FTA > I discovered thermal comfort depends on four environmental factors: air temperature, heat radiation, airflow, and humidity. He's managing more variables than those handled by your three knobs, and also deals with seat temperature in his setting. You might not want any of the finer control, some don't even want climate control and will run with open windows in dead winter. But I see a lot of benefit of his approach for anyone who cares as much as him about climate control.

rounce 2y ago
A good interface would provide a helpful abstraction that allows the user to make clearer and faster decisions about those four variables rather than just exposing them directly to the user.

isolli 2y ago

Interesting comment regarding the lack of a thermostat. Sometimes, qualitative setting is better than quantitative. Precise temperature settings lead to overthinking and fiddling, in my experience. With qualitative settings, at most two interventions are necessary to reach a comfortable setting.

mihaaly 2y ago

I gave up on having decent and reliable design of controls in cars. Even if someone would come up with something having minimal (preferably zero) cognitive disruption that is easy to learn and used to, the constant self-forced and determined nervous pressure of providing new, and new, and very new, and revolutionary, and new revolutionary, and disruptive, will make me re-learn whatever new idea is forced on me with a new car. I dread replacing our 20 yo car. But we have to. Maybe - considering all other troubles with modern cars, like very poor computerization and inherent safety issues, optimization to the level of corruption or unreliability, sales hostility (subscription), nauseating design nightmares - better move to a city and country with decent mass transit system. Could be a win-win for us and the environment. For the missed cases there is taxi and rental. Car dominated societies are not nice to live in anyway.

drdude 2y ago
I gave up on cars in the US for few years now... I just bought a hyper electric escooter and use it to travel 60+/- miles per charge... no gas, no insurance, no maintenance (only the rare flats and brake pad changes), and no plate and safety/emission... etc etc. Buy once, use till the battery dies... rinse and repeat... gear is inconvenient though but can put up with it.
- genewitch 2y ago
  Where I'm at there's a cross on the side of the highway every quarter mile or so to mark where people who decided to not use a car to commute that day are commemorated.