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Are you surprised? Shopify and Tobi Lütke have strongly defended "freedom of speech" to continue platforming hate groups in the past. They are happy to platfor

by ygjb 2y ago

Are you surprised? Shopify and Tobi Lütke have strongly defended "freedom of speech" to continue platforming hate groups in the past. They are happy to platform truly awful people as long as they get their cut.

jeswin 2y ago
Why should "freedom of speech" not be defended? The way to combat hate is by educating people better, instead of banning swastikas or whatever.
- ygjb 2y ago
  Agree to disagree; first, I am not American, and don't buy into the notion of Freedom of Speech - I am Canadian, and we have Freedom of Expression, which includes the notion that while people should have freedom of expression, there are certain elements of expression that infringe on the safety of others, and it is reasonable to restrict them. I know the US has had similar constraints in the past (fire in a theatre, etc), but the US is also currently speed-running trying to throw it's history of oppression into the memory hole. It's not enough to just depend on educating people - we can see that education hasn't been very effective, and education has been subverted in several countries, including the United States and Canada.
  - ranger_danger 2y ago
    > to continue platforming hate groups in the past You say that as if there is some conscious decision to explicitly allow each and every instance of questionable speech like it's their job to police it. Do you consider Cloudflare agreeing with the speech on 4chan by allowing them to use their services? I take comfort in knowing that (many) companies understand they should not be the judge of what speech should be allowed, I see them merely as a conduit and not an arbiter. This is exactly why Section 230 exists in the US, it shields providers from what other people say or do when using their networks. And if we didn't have that, I think the Internet as it stands would be completely different. Not sure what good you thought it was going to do to come into a thread about a US company, say they are defending free speech and then turn around and go "yea I don't believe in free speech". I would die for their right to free speech even if I don't agree with what they say. Are you prepared to do the same for your beliefs?
    - ygjb 2y ago
      > Do you consider Cloudflare agreeing with the speech on 4chan by allowing them to use their services? Yes I do; it is a choice to profit by delivering services to different communities. Over and above being a good company and having lots of interesting technical challenges, one of the reasons I stayed at Fastly for nearly 5 years was because of the good neighbours practice, and the fact that the leaders at Fastly chose not to do business with companies that platform hate. > Not sure what good you thought it was going to do to come into a thread about a US company, say they are defending free speech and then turn around and go "yea I don't believe in free speech". Well, Shopify is a Canadian company, and I am Canadian, so I thought it might be useful to share a Canadian perspective. > I would die for their right to free speech even if I don't agree with what they say. Are you prepared to do the same for your beliefs? Yes. I enlisted in my countries military, and indicated my preference to join a peace keeping regiment because I believe that as someone who has the ability to stand up for and defend others, I should. I believe very strongly in Freedom of Expression, but when that expression turns to hate and advocating eugenics, genocide or any number of things that my country and my grand-parents fought against, well.. sometimes you have to punch Nazis... (or Hutu war criminals, or Bosnian war criminals, etc).
  - _zagj 2y ago
    > It's not enough to just depend on educating people - we can see that education hasn't been very effective, Are you referring to the anti-Israel protests on college campuses in the US?
- Larrikin 2y ago
  Which is why the Nazis were defeated the first time by harsh OP eds in local newspapers. Tolerance paradox, etc
- dathinab 2y ago
  in "absolutes"/extremes pretty much anything is highly bad freedom of speech has many good and important aspects which must be protected but there really is no reason to extend it to every kind of hate speech and implicit promoting white supremacy and genocide not only is there no reason to tolerate it there are a lot of reasons to not tolerate it I mean there are quit many examples from small scale to international scale showing how letting hate speech go unchecked leads to endless pain and suffering of innocent. Defending spreading hate speech without any limit in a time where all this history is available just a few clicks away is either highly ignorant, or outright with evil intent. And yes there is a gray area between speech which really should be protected and hate speech only doing harm. Seeking swastika T-shirt very clearly isn't in that area. Lastly nothing prevents you to keep hate speech in check and also educate people better. Most (all?) EU member states do take educating people better at least slightly serious. But history has clearly shown that keeping hate speech in check is fundamental needed, too.
- drivingmenuts 2y ago
  Freedom of Speech is a core principle of our Constitution and it should be definded (or changed, if it becomes a problem). But I will make an exception for any extremist will ill-intent. If that somehow makes me seem inconsistent, I'm OK with that. Stopping racists is a public service. I'm OK with shutting them down hard.
  - ygjb 2y ago
    *your Constitution. HN has an international audience.
    - olyjohn 2y ago
      That's what "Ours" means in this context. Him and the people of his country. Not him and everybody on HN.
- throw0101d 2y ago
  > Why should "freedom of speech" not be defended? One argument: > The paradox of tolerance is a philosophical concept suggesting that if a society extends tolerance to those who are intolerant, it risks enabling the eventual dominance of intolerance, thereby undermining the very principle of tolerance. This paradox was articulated by philosopher Karl Popper in The Open Society and Its Enemies (1945),[1] where he argued that a truly tolerant society must retain the right to deny tolerance to those who promote intolerance. Popper posited that if intolerant ideologies are allowed unchecked expression, they could exploit open society values to erode or destroy tolerance itself through authoritarian or oppressive practices. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance > The way to combat hate is by educating people better, instead of banning swastikas or whatever. This can lead to a human 'DoS' attack: > The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than that needed to produce it.[1][2] * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
- quantified 2y ago
  Where are the better educators and how are they getting through? Something is quite messed up when it's a Kanye West selling this stuff. Not too many overtly Nazi pop stars in the US in the aftermath of WW II.
inetknght 2y ago
> They are happy to platform truly awful people as long as they get their cut. You make it sound like that's a bad thing. But it's not.

by ygjb 2y ago

jeswin 2y ago

Why should "freedom of speech" not be defended? The way to combat hate is by educating people better, instead of banning swastikas or whatever.

ygjb 2y ago
Agree to disagree; first, I am not American, and don't buy into the notion of Freedom of Speech - I am Canadian, and we have Freedom of Expression, which includes the notion that while people should have freedom of expression, there are certain elements of expression that infringe on the safety of others, and it is reasonable to restrict them. I know the US has had similar constraints in the past (fire in a theatre, etc), but the US is also currently speed-running trying to throw it's history of oppression into the memory hole. It's not enough to just depend on educating people - we can see that education hasn't been very effective, and education has been subverted in several countries, including the United States and Canada.
- ranger_danger 2y ago
  > to continue platforming hate groups in the past You say that as if there is some conscious decision to explicitly allow each and every instance of questionable speech like it's their job to police it. Do you consider Cloudflare agreeing with the speech on 4chan by allowing them to use their services? I take comfort in knowing that (many) companies understand they should not be the judge of what speech should be allowed, I see them merely as a conduit and not an arbiter. This is exactly why Section 230 exists in the US, it shields providers from what other people say or do when using their networks. And if we didn't have that, I think the Internet as it stands would be completely different. Not sure what good you thought it was going to do to come into a thread about a US company, say they are defending free speech and then turn around and go "yea I don't believe in free speech". I would die for their right to free speech even if I don't agree with what they say. Are you prepared to do the same for your beliefs?
  - ygjb 2y ago
    > Do you consider Cloudflare agreeing with the speech on 4chan by allowing them to use their services? Yes I do; it is a choice to profit by delivering services to different communities. Over and above being a good company and having lots of interesting technical challenges, one of the reasons I stayed at Fastly for nearly 5 years was because of the good neighbours practice, and the fact that the leaders at Fastly chose not to do business with companies that platform hate. > Not sure what good you thought it was going to do to come into a thread about a US company, say they are defending free speech and then turn around and go "yea I don't believe in free speech". Well, Shopify is a Canadian company, and I am Canadian, so I thought it might be useful to share a Canadian perspective. > I would die for their right to free speech even if I don't agree with what they say. Are you prepared to do the same for your beliefs? Yes. I enlisted in my countries military, and indicated my preference to join a peace keeping regiment because I believe that as someone who has the ability to stand up for and defend others, I should. I believe very strongly in Freedom of Expression, but when that expression turns to hate and advocating eugenics, genocide or any number of things that my country and my grand-parents fought against, well.. sometimes you have to punch Nazis... (or Hutu war criminals, or Bosnian war criminals, etc).
- _zagj 2y ago
  > It's not enough to just depend on educating people - we can see that education hasn't been very effective, Are you referring to the anti-Israel protests on college campuses in the US?
Larrikin 2y ago
Which is why the Nazis were defeated the first time by harsh OP eds in local newspapers. Tolerance paradox, etc
dathinab 2y ago
in "absolutes"/extremes pretty much anything is highly bad freedom of speech has many good and important aspects which must be protected but there really is no reason to extend it to every kind of hate speech and implicit promoting white supremacy and genocide not only is there no reason to tolerate it there are a lot of reasons to not tolerate it I mean there are quit many examples from small scale to international scale showing how letting hate speech go unchecked leads to endless pain and suffering of innocent. Defending spreading hate speech without any limit in a time where all this history is available just a few clicks away is either highly ignorant, or outright with evil intent. And yes there is a gray area between speech which really should be protected and hate speech only doing harm. Seeking swastika T-shirt very clearly isn't in that area. Lastly nothing prevents you to keep hate speech in check and also educate people better. Most (all?) EU member states do take educating people better at least slightly serious. But history has clearly shown that keeping hate speech in check is fundamental needed, too.
drivingmenuts 2y ago
Freedom of Speech is a core principle of our Constitution and it should be definded (or changed, if it becomes a problem). But I will make an exception for any extremist will ill-intent. If that somehow makes me seem inconsistent, I'm OK with that. Stopping racists is a public service. I'm OK with shutting them down hard.
- ygjb 2y ago
  *your Constitution. HN has an international audience.
  - olyjohn 2y ago
    That's what "Ours" means in this context. Him and the people of his country. Not him and everybody on HN.
throw0101d 2y ago
> Why should "freedom of speech" not be defended? One argument: > The paradox of tolerance is a philosophical concept suggesting that if a society extends tolerance to those who are intolerant, it risks enabling the eventual dominance of intolerance, thereby undermining the very principle of tolerance. This paradox was articulated by philosopher Karl Popper in The Open Society and Its Enemies (1945),[1] where he argued that a truly tolerant society must retain the right to deny tolerance to those who promote intolerance. Popper posited that if intolerant ideologies are allowed unchecked expression, they could exploit open society values to erode or destroy tolerance itself through authoritarian or oppressive practices. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance > The way to combat hate is by educating people better, instead of banning swastikas or whatever. This can lead to a human 'DoS' attack: > The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than that needed to produce it.[1][2] * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
quantified 2y ago
Where are the better educators and how are they getting through? Something is quite messed up when it's a Kanye West selling this stuff. Not too many overtly Nazi pop stars in the US in the aftermath of WW II.

inetknght 2y ago

> They are happy to platform truly awful people as long as they get their cut. You make it sound like that's a bad thing. But it's not.