4 ms·

I'm from the area that this concerns, and if anyone wants to know why the tree huggers are so upset check out google maps of the area: http://maps.google.com/m

by bjclark 18y ago

I'm from the area that this concerns, and if anyone wants to know why the tree huggers are so upset check out google maps of the area: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Rifle,+CO&sll=39.333146,-108.213746&sspn=0.053442,0.067978&ie=UTF8&ll=39.507749,-107.910719&spn=0.051719,0.067978&t=h&z=14&iwloc=addr http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&#38... If you look all up and down I-70 and all throughout the region, you'll see tons and tons of dirt roads and big dirt rectangles. Each one of these is a natural gas well. This is a beautiful part of Colorado and Utah, and it's being completely devastated by the development. We call it a "National Sacrifice Area" in my family.

patrickg-zill 18y ago
So your hatred of the resulting ugliness trumps others' private property rights, including mineral rights?
- emuload 18y ago
  Hmm this is tough. Ugly or less domestic oil production... Thing is, if we drill more, gas prices are affected (in a good way for us). If we don't drill, we will NEVER tap the potential of our resources (and it's there). And if we do drill, the land will look disgusting, which is definitely bad. Especially such beautiful land in the west... But since I'm not living there I am inclined to be okay with the land looking ugly, since I'm not the one who has to live with it. It's the same deal with windmills -- everyone wants to build them but nobody wants to look at them. I guess I care more about my gas prices. Is that a bad thing? Hm and can we stick to hacking? I mean it was an interesting article but man I'm depressed now. Haha.
  - lliiffee 18y ago
    In order to decide, we need quantitative estimates of how much prices will be reduced, and how much natural beauty will be harmed. It seems to me that even someone with your attitude will probably find the trade-off does not favor development in beautiful areas for the unmeasurably small change in prices we can expect. http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/aeo/otheranalysis/ongr.html http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/aeo/otheranalysis/ongr.html
- mindslight 18y ago
  I don't think property rights enter the picture when it's a government steward making long term leases available, possibly against the public interest. And that they're claiming he significantly raised prices for parcels that he didn't end up winning shows that the auction was a sham (basically the companies expected to not have much bidding competition).
  - cperciva 18y ago
    And that they're claiming he significantly raised prices for parcels that he didn't end up winning shows that the auction was a sham Not necessarily. It's entirely rational for bidders to say "hey, there's more competition bidding on this parcel than I expected, maybe this parcel is worth more than I thought". Bidders don't have perfect knowledge, and they are well aware of this fact.
    - mindslight 18y ago
      It is true that a bid signals a committed willingness to pay a certain price. But then what disqualifies this kid's bids as not being part of determining the true cost? He says that he accepted possibly going to jail, and I'm sure he'd rather be in debt for the bid amount instead of jail, so in essence his bids were backed up by a commitment. You know, now that he's got a bit of money and publicity backing him, it'd be kind of funny if he sued and got all of the sales that were completed after he was escorted out invalidated, as he was denied participation, and therefore they are _undervalued_.
      - cperciva 18y ago
        what disqualifies this kid's bids as not being part of determining the true cost The fact that they were fraudulent. He had no intention of ever paying the amount which he bid.
        mindslight 18y ago
        Yeah, I suppose that was a stillborn argument, given that the debt in question isn't the result of a creditor explicitly loaning money for the purpose, but arising from a non-fulfilled transaction.

by bjclark 18y ago

patrickg-zill 18y ago

So your hatred of the resulting ugliness trumps others' private property rights, including mineral rights?

emuload 18y ago
Hmm this is tough. Ugly or less domestic oil production... Thing is, if we drill more, gas prices are affected (in a good way for us). If we don't drill, we will NEVER tap the potential of our resources (and it's there). And if we do drill, the land will look disgusting, which is definitely bad. Especially such beautiful land in the west... But since I'm not living there I am inclined to be okay with the land looking ugly, since I'm not the one who has to live with it. It's the same deal with windmills -- everyone wants to build them but nobody wants to look at them. I guess I care more about my gas prices. Is that a bad thing? Hm and can we stick to hacking? I mean it was an interesting article but man I'm depressed now. Haha.
- lliiffee 18y ago
  In order to decide, we need quantitative estimates of how much prices will be reduced, and how much natural beauty will be harmed. It seems to me that even someone with your attitude will probably find the trade-off does not favor development in beautiful areas for the unmeasurably small change in prices we can expect. http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/aeo/otheranalysis/ongr.html http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/aeo/otheranalysis/ongr.html
mindslight 18y ago
I don't think property rights enter the picture when it's a government steward making long term leases available, possibly against the public interest. And that they're claiming he significantly raised prices for parcels that he didn't end up winning shows that the auction was a sham (basically the companies expected to not have much bidding competition).
- cperciva 18y ago
  And that they're claiming he significantly raised prices for parcels that he didn't end up winning shows that the auction was a sham Not necessarily. It's entirely rational for bidders to say "hey, there's more competition bidding on this parcel than I expected, maybe this parcel is worth more than I thought". Bidders don't have perfect knowledge, and they are well aware of this fact.
  - mindslight 18y ago
    It is true that a bid signals a committed willingness to pay a certain price. But then what disqualifies this kid's bids as not being part of determining the true cost? He says that he accepted possibly going to jail, and I'm sure he'd rather be in debt for the bid amount instead of jail, so in essence his bids were backed up by a commitment. You know, now that he's got a bit of money and publicity backing him, it'd be kind of funny if he sued and got all of the sales that were completed after he was escorted out invalidated, as he was denied participation, and therefore they are _undervalued_.
    - cperciva 18y ago
      what disqualifies this kid's bids as not being part of determining the true cost The fact that they were fraudulent. He had no intention of ever paying the amount which he bid.
      - mindslight 18y ago
        Yeah, I suppose that was a stillborn argument, given that the debt in question isn't the result of a creditor explicitly loaning money for the purpose, but arising from a non-fulfilled transaction.