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Connectors are actually extremely difficult to make. - you have to ensure that the metal connectors take shape and bond to the wire properly. This is done by c

by mlsu 2y ago

Connectors are actually extremely difficult to make. - you have to ensure that the metal connectors take shape and bond to the wire properly. This is done by crimping. Look up how much a good crimping tool costs for a rough approximation of how difficult it can be to get this right. - one plastic bit has to mate with another plastic bit, mechanically. This needs to be easy enough for 99.99% of users to do easily, yet it needs to be 99.99% reliable, so that the two bits will not become separated, even partially. Even under thermal expansion. - the electrical contacts inside must be mechanically mated over a large surface area so that current can pass from one connector to another. - it must be intuitive for people to use. Ideally user pushes it and it clicks right in. No weird angles either, it could be behind a mechanical component that's tough to reach. Also, user has to be able to un-mate the connector from the same position. It should be tough for a user to accidentally plug in an ill suited connector into the wrong slot. - has to cost peanuts. Nobody will pay $3 for a connector. Nobody will even want to pay $1 for a connector. BOM cost is 15-20% finished goods cost. Will the end user pay $8, $10, $12 for a good connector? No. - repeatable to manufacture (on the board and on the cable) at high quality. User might take apart their PC a dozen times, to fix things, clean, etc for the lifetime of the component. So the quality bar is actually very high. Nothing can come loose or break off, not even internal parts. - physically compact. PCB space is at an extreme premium. - your connector design has to live across many product cycles, since people are going to be connecting old parts to new boards and they'll be upset if they can't do this. So this increases risk by a lot as redesigning a connector means breaking compatibility for existing users. Connectors are actually a very very deep and interesting well. I'm not surprised at all that they are running into issues here, these cards are pulling 500+ watts. That is a LOT of current. I think next gen we will begin seeing 24V power supplies to deal with this.

pja 2y ago
> I think next gen we will begin seeing 24V power supplies to deal with this. May as well go the whole hog & jump to 48V. (50V is as high as you can go whilst still being inside the “low voltage” electrical safety regime in most countries IIRC.)
- Schiendelman 2y ago
  Then the graphics card would have to have a transformer on it to step down to the voltage that the chips can handle.
  - dcan 2y ago
    They already do - most of the components buck the 12V down to the 1.3ish volts that the GPU core needs
    - Schiendelman 2y ago
      So then it would need to be significantly larger.
      - lazide 2y ago
        Likely smaller actually.
        SV_BubbleTime 2y ago
        This isn’t how it works. Your SMPS needs sub-2V output, cool. That means it only needs to accept small portions of the incoming. But, if the incoming is 48V, it needs 48V tolerant parts. All your caps, inductor (optional typically), diodes, the SMPS itself. Maybe there isn’t a sides difference in a 0603 50V capacitor and 10V 0603 capacitor, but there is a cost difference. And it definitely doesn’t get smaller just because. Your traces at 48V likely need more space/separation or routing considerations that they would at 24V, but this should be a quickly resolved problem at your SMPS is likely right next to your connector.
        lazide 2y ago
        Yes. And it also doesn’t need to handle 40+ AMPs on input, with associated large bus bars, large input wires, etc. Extra insulation is likely only a mm or two, those other components are big and heavy, and have to be. It’s the same reason inverters have been moving away from 12v to 48v. Larger currents require physically larger and heavier parts in a difficult to manage way. Larger voltages don’t start being problematic until either > 48v or >1000v (depending on the power band).
readingnews 2y ago
>> Connectors are actually extremely difficult to make. While your points listed are valid, we have been making connectors that overcome these points for decades, in some cases approaching the century mark. >> I'm not surprised at all that they are running into issues here, these cards are pulling 500+ watts. That is a LOT of current. Nonsense. I used to work at an industrial power generation company. 500W is _nothing_. At 12VDC, that is 41.66A of current. A few, small, well made pins and wires can handle that. It should not be a big deal to overcome that. We have overcome that in cars (which undergo _extreme_ temperature and environmental changes, in mere minutes and hours, daily, for years), space stations (geez), appliances, and thousands of other industrial applications that you do not see (robots, cranes, elevators, equipment in fields and farmlands, equipment in mines, equipment misused by people)... and those systems fail less frequently than Nvidia connectors. But your comment would lead one to think that building a connector with twelve pins on it to handle a whopping (I am joking) 500W (not much, really, I have had connectors in equipment that needed to handle 1,000,000Watts of power, OUTDOORS, IN THE RAIN, and be taken apart and put back together DAILY) is an insurmountable task.
- userbinator 2y ago
  One word: cost. Look up how much industrial/automotive connectors cost, and you'll see the huge difference in quality.
  - Manozco 2y ago
    I've bought cars that cost me less than a nVidia card (and they were running).
    - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
      Which new cars cost less than 2000$-1000$?
      - ziddoap 2y ago
        They didn't say new cars.
ImHereToVote 2y ago
"Nobody will pay $3 for a connector" I would pay $10.
- Henchman21 2y ago
  This whole conversation seems absurd! Of course you'd pay for the right power connector for your multi-thousand dollar card! You don't buy a $200k sports car and then take it to Jiffy Lube for oil changes. You pony up for the cost of proper maintenance!
  - Modified3019 2y ago
    A quote I found the other day and saved (forgot where from): >Like the classic trope says, it's not about affording to buy the Ferrari, it's whether you can afford to maintain it.

by mlsu 2y ago

pja 2y ago

> I think next gen we will begin seeing 24V power supplies to deal with this. May as well go the whole hog & jump to 48V. (50V is as high as you can go whilst still being inside the “low voltage” electrical safety regime in most countries IIRC.)

Schiendelman 2y ago
Then the graphics card would have to have a transformer on it to step down to the voltage that the chips can handle.
- dcan 2y ago
  They already do - most of the components buck the 12V down to the 1.3ish volts that the GPU core needs
  - Schiendelman 2y ago
    So then it would need to be significantly larger.
    - lazide 2y ago
      Likely smaller actually.
      - SV_BubbleTime 2y ago
        This isn’t how it works. Your SMPS needs sub-2V output, cool. That means it only needs to accept small portions of the incoming. But, if the incoming is 48V, it needs 48V tolerant parts. All your caps, inductor (optional typically), diodes, the SMPS itself. Maybe there isn’t a sides difference in a 0603 50V capacitor and 10V 0603 capacitor, but there is a cost difference. And it definitely doesn’t get smaller just because. Your traces at 48V likely need more space/separation or routing considerations that they would at 24V, but this should be a quickly resolved problem at your SMPS is likely right next to your connector.
        lazide 2y ago
        Yes. And it also doesn’t need to handle 40+ AMPs on input, with associated large bus bars, large input wires, etc. Extra insulation is likely only a mm or two, those other components are big and heavy, and have to be. It’s the same reason inverters have been moving away from 12v to 48v. Larger currents require physically larger and heavier parts in a difficult to manage way. Larger voltages don’t start being problematic until either > 48v or >1000v (depending on the power band).

readingnews 2y ago

>> Connectors are actually extremely difficult to make. While your points listed are valid, we have been making connectors that overcome these points for decades, in some cases approaching the century mark. >> I'm not surprised at all that they are running into issues here, these cards are pulling 500+ watts. That is a LOT of current. Nonsense. I used to work at an industrial power generation company. 500W is _nothing_. At 12VDC, that is 41.66A of current. A few, small, well made pins and wires can handle that. It should not be a big deal to overcome that. We have overcome that in cars (which undergo _extreme_ temperature and environmental changes, in mere minutes and hours, daily, for years), space stations (geez), appliances, and thousands of other industrial applications that you do not see (robots, cranes, elevators, equipment in fields and farmlands, equipment in mines, equipment misused by people)... and those systems fail less frequently than Nvidia connectors. But your comment would lead one to think that building a connector with twelve pins on it to handle a whopping (I am joking) 500W (not much, really, I have had connectors in equipment that needed to handle 1,000,000Watts of power, OUTDOORS, IN THE RAIN, and be taken apart and put back together DAILY) is an insurmountable task.

userbinator 2y ago
One word: cost. Look up how much industrial/automotive connectors cost, and you'll see the huge difference in quality.
- Manozco 2y ago
  I've bought cars that cost me less than a nVidia card (and they were running).
  - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
    Which new cars cost less than 2000$-1000$?
    - ziddoap 2y ago
      They didn't say new cars.

ImHereToVote 2y ago

"Nobody will pay $3 for a connector" I would pay $10.

Henchman21 2y ago
This whole conversation seems absurd! Of course you'd pay for the right power connector for your multi-thousand dollar card! You don't buy a $200k sports car and then take it to Jiffy Lube for oil changes. You pony up for the cost of proper maintenance!
- Modified3019 2y ago
  A quote I found the other day and saved (forgot where from): >Like the classic trope says, it's not about affording to buy the Ferrari, it's whether you can afford to maintain it.