9 ms·

I've been a vegetarian for 4 years and stopped about a year ago. This sounds great, but it still consists of soy protein, which is not good for men due to estro

by zavulon 14y ago

I've been a vegetarian for 4 years and stopped about a year ago. This sounds great, but it still consists of soy protein, which is not good for men due to estrogen. http://www.menshealth.com/nutrition/soys-negative-effects http://www.menshealth.com/nutrition/soys-negative-effects Not too reliable of a source, I know, but there's a bunch of reputable books that I've read back in the day on this subject that said the same thing.

powertower 14y ago
Soy (unfermented) is a terrible idea. http://www.jacn.org/content/19/2/242.full http://www.jacn.org/content/19/2/242.full "Results: Poor cognitive test performance, enlargement of ventricles and low brain weight were each significantly and independently associated with higher midlife tofu consumption." "We hypothesize that regular dietary exposure to soy isoflavones over many years during middle life may be associated with the appearance of accelerated brain aging in later life attributable to chronically sub-optimal neural plasticity."
- illumin8 14y ago
  This study seems to be counteracted by millions of Asian people that are living well into their 80s, 90s, and 100s, and eat a diet that has quite a bit of unfermented (and fermented) soy in it.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - powertower 14y ago
    Those diets are rich in fermeted soy and are balanced by additional products that counter the negative effects of soy.
  - vidarh 14y ago
    Surely that depends on how much of that population falls on the "low" or "high" side of soy intake as measured by the study. I don't know how much of the Asian population falls into the intake levels this study claims might be negatively affected - do you?
- mistercow 14y ago
  >We hypothesize That's key right there, and it's all you'll ever get from a longitudinal study. You want to make strong claims about the effects of soy like "soy is a terrible idea", you're going to need a controlled trial, not a cohort study.
- harshreality 14y ago
  I would like to see a study like that controlled for cardiovascular exercise. I am also concerned about the validity of the theory because of the trend stall in figure 2 at ages 80-89 and the stark reversal in the 90-93 age group, where high-high was at almost low-low levels. It looks to me like there is a good chance of some unaccounted confounding variable, even beyond the possible effects of exercise (which would not explain the 90-93 group).
nsns 14y ago
There are many medical articles published on peer reviewed journals to counter this myth, it has no basis in reality, and has never been proved. One of those xenophobic-anti-Asian myths from the 60s (similar to the one about MSG). If you can't find them yourself (the Wikipedia entry is a good start), let me know and I'll provide citations.
- powertower 14y ago
  Papers and studies sponsored by the soy industry to debunk "myths" published from reputable centers aren't really that great even if someone updated a wikipedia entry to reference one of them. Personally, I don't touch the stuff.
  - Scriptor 14y ago
    It seems like a knee-jerk reaction to believe that all those papers are sponsored by the soy industry and everything saying that soy does have estrogen is coming from a reputable source.
JPKab 14y ago
I was a vegetarian for 9 years (vegan for 4). My personal, anecdotal and completely unscientific experience: when i switched from soy protein shakes to whey protein shakes, I immediately noticed an improvement in recovery times, not to mention less gas. Soy is not going to be a complete substitute for meat's nutritional components. Supplemented with lots of liquid aminos, etc? Probably will work well. But the worst part for me about a vegan diet is the difficulty in getting enough fat intake. Too little fat in the diet causes depression.
- harshreality 14y ago
  Out of curiosity, why'd you stop? Difficulty maintaining healthy diet?
  - JPKab 14y ago
    In my early 20's, when I was still trying to land my first "office job" out of college, I was working construction. The work was physically demanding, and no matter how much I ate, I always felt hungry and sore. Tons of tofu, tempeh, beans, it didn't matter. My buddy brought over a ton of venison which I put in the freezer. I had enough for two months of meals. I started eating it every day, and within 48 hours I noticed a huge difference. My weight went up to 195 (i'm 6'2, and it had dropped to 175) which was a much healthier weight, and most importantly, my depression (which i really didn't know i had, went away)and i just felt better, more motivated, happier, you name it. I'm sure many, many vegetarians live great, happy lives on their diet. I'm not one of them. Years of farting all the time from soy (beano didn't do it for me), never gaining muscle, not being able to socialize with my male buddies since 90% of the vegetarians i encountered were females..... the list goes on.
    - jbapple 14y ago
      Thanks for describing your experiences. This part confused me: > not being able to socialize with my male buddies since 90% of the vegetarians i encountered were females Did you have trouble socializing with people who didn't share your dietary restrictions?
vidarh 14y ago
Irrespective of the concerns about the soy, the wider question is the dietary profile after their processing. Whey protein can be used to produce biodegradable packaging material. Doesn't mean I'd be automatically willing to replace my whey protein shakes with eating boxes. Not even if they taste nice.
mistercow 14y ago
There is very, very little evidence that soy products are harmful to men because of phytoestrogens. The evidence is basically this: 1. Phytoestrogens found in soy are chemically related to human estrogen 2. Phytoestrogens are readily absorbed by humans when consumed So it was a reasonable hypothesis that soy might be harmful to men due to phytoestrogens. This hypothesis has been tested, and falsified, by numerous studies.
- powertower 14y ago
  If you can, please reference the studies were it was falisified and the studies that debunked those falsifications. So far all the "pro soy" people have posted exactly zero references. I would just like to check for myself.
  - mistercow 14y ago
    Here is a meta-analysis: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19524224 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19524224
    - powertower 14y ago
      > The results of this meta-analysis suggest that neither soy foods nor isoflavone supplements alter measures of bioavailable T concentrations in men. I would have to read the rest to find out how much soy protein or isoflavones was given, for how long, in addition to what the diets were, but from the above, that does not debunk anything... All it states is that in this particular expirement, they don't think it causes lowered T levels. This is a world away from saying that soy isoflavones don't have estrogen-like effects, nor interact or effect estrogen receptors, nor have a negative effect on the brain. And I can't even imagine why they did not check estrogen levels.
      - mistercow 14y ago
        >All it states is that in this particular expirement, That sounds like you didn't actually read the abstract. It wasn't a "particular experiment". It was forty-seven experiments. >they don't think it causes lowered T levels. ... or SBHG levels, or FAI. >This is a world away from saying that soy isoflavones don't have estrogen-like effects, nor interact or effect estrogen receptors, nor have a negative effect on the brain. Well, no, it's not a world away from that, because one of the major effects of estrogen on men is to affect androgen levels, so if these isoflavones don't do that, then it is unlikely that they are affecting the body the same way that estrogen does. It doesn't rule out the possibility that soy isoflavones affect the human body, but it puts a huge hole in the entire basis for thinking that they might.
drharris 14y ago
Well, from the perspective of an omnivore, soy would be a huge improvement over chicken in the estrogen department. The hormones added to make chicken breasts plump up tend to result in fulfilling the prophecy "you are what you eat".
- hollerith 14y ago
  What is your evidence that chicken contains more estrogen-like compounds than soy? That hormones given to chickens cause chicken breasts to "plump up"?
syedkarim 14y ago
"but the company says it will focus on other non-soy options in the future" http://www.thekitchn.com/twitter-co-founders-betting-big-on-a-beyond-meat-a-vegan-meat-startup-food-news-172811 http://www.thekitchn.com/twitter-co-founders-betting-big-on-...

by zavulon 14y ago

powertower 14y ago

Soy (unfermented) is a terrible idea. http://www.jacn.org/content/19/2/242.full http://www.jacn.org/content/19/2/242.full "Results: Poor cognitive test performance, enlargement of ventricles and low brain weight were each significantly and independently associated with higher midlife tofu consumption." "We hypothesize that regular dietary exposure to soy isoflavones over many years during middle life may be associated with the appearance of accelerated brain aging in later life attributable to chronically sub-optimal neural plasticity."

illumin8 14y ago
This study seems to be counteracted by millions of Asian people that are living well into their 80s, 90s, and 100s, and eat a diet that has quite a bit of unfermented (and fermented) soy in it.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- powertower 14y ago
  Those diets are rich in fermeted soy and are balanced by additional products that counter the negative effects of soy.
- vidarh 14y ago
  Surely that depends on how much of that population falls on the "low" or "high" side of soy intake as measured by the study. I don't know how much of the Asian population falls into the intake levels this study claims might be negatively affected - do you?
mistercow 14y ago
>We hypothesize That's key right there, and it's all you'll ever get from a longitudinal study. You want to make strong claims about the effects of soy like "soy is a terrible idea", you're going to need a controlled trial, not a cohort study.
harshreality 14y ago
I would like to see a study like that controlled for cardiovascular exercise. I am also concerned about the validity of the theory because of the trend stall in figure 2 at ages 80-89 and the stark reversal in the 90-93 age group, where high-high was at almost low-low levels. It looks to me like there is a good chance of some unaccounted confounding variable, even beyond the possible effects of exercise (which would not explain the 90-93 group).

nsns 14y ago

There are many medical articles published on peer reviewed journals to counter this myth, it has no basis in reality, and has never been proved. One of those xenophobic-anti-Asian myths from the 60s (similar to the one about MSG). If you can't find them yourself (the Wikipedia entry is a good start), let me know and I'll provide citations.

powertower 14y ago
Papers and studies sponsored by the soy industry to debunk "myths" published from reputable centers aren't really that great even if someone updated a wikipedia entry to reference one of them. Personally, I don't touch the stuff.
- Scriptor 14y ago
  It seems like a knee-jerk reaction to believe that all those papers are sponsored by the soy industry and everything saying that soy does have estrogen is coming from a reputable source.

JPKab 14y ago

I was a vegetarian for 9 years (vegan for 4). My personal, anecdotal and completely unscientific experience: when i switched from soy protein shakes to whey protein shakes, I immediately noticed an improvement in recovery times, not to mention less gas. Soy is not going to be a complete substitute for meat's nutritional components. Supplemented with lots of liquid aminos, etc? Probably will work well. But the worst part for me about a vegan diet is the difficulty in getting enough fat intake. Too little fat in the diet causes depression.

harshreality 14y ago
Out of curiosity, why'd you stop? Difficulty maintaining healthy diet?
- JPKab 14y ago
  In my early 20's, when I was still trying to land my first "office job" out of college, I was working construction. The work was physically demanding, and no matter how much I ate, I always felt hungry and sore. Tons of tofu, tempeh, beans, it didn't matter. My buddy brought over a ton of venison which I put in the freezer. I had enough for two months of meals. I started eating it every day, and within 48 hours I noticed a huge difference. My weight went up to 195 (i'm 6'2, and it had dropped to 175) which was a much healthier weight, and most importantly, my depression (which i really didn't know i had, went away)and i just felt better, more motivated, happier, you name it. I'm sure many, many vegetarians live great, happy lives on their diet. I'm not one of them. Years of farting all the time from soy (beano didn't do it for me), never gaining muscle, not being able to socialize with my male buddies since 90% of the vegetarians i encountered were females..... the list goes on.
  - jbapple 14y ago
    Thanks for describing your experiences. This part confused me: > not being able to socialize with my male buddies since 90% of the vegetarians i encountered were females Did you have trouble socializing with people who didn't share your dietary restrictions?

vidarh 14y ago

Irrespective of the concerns about the soy, the wider question is the dietary profile after their processing. Whey protein can be used to produce biodegradable packaging material. Doesn't mean I'd be automatically willing to replace my whey protein shakes with eating boxes. Not even if they taste nice.

mistercow 14y ago

There is very, very little evidence that soy products are harmful to men because of phytoestrogens. The evidence is basically this: 1. Phytoestrogens found in soy are chemically related to human estrogen 2. Phytoestrogens are readily absorbed by humans when consumed So it was a reasonable hypothesis that soy might be harmful to men due to phytoestrogens. This hypothesis has been tested, and falsified, by numerous studies.

powertower 14y ago
If you can, please reference the studies were it was falisified and the studies that debunked those falsifications. So far all the "pro soy" people have posted exactly zero references. I would just like to check for myself.
- mistercow 14y ago
  Here is a meta-analysis: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19524224 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19524224
  - powertower 14y ago
    > The results of this meta-analysis suggest that neither soy foods nor isoflavone supplements alter measures of bioavailable T concentrations in men. I would have to read the rest to find out how much soy protein or isoflavones was given, for how long, in addition to what the diets were, but from the above, that does not debunk anything... All it states is that in this particular expirement, they don't think it causes lowered T levels. This is a world away from saying that soy isoflavones don't have estrogen-like effects, nor interact or effect estrogen receptors, nor have a negative effect on the brain. And I can't even imagine why they did not check estrogen levels.
    - mistercow 14y ago
      >All it states is that in this particular expirement, That sounds like you didn't actually read the abstract. It wasn't a "particular experiment". It was forty-seven experiments. >they don't think it causes lowered T levels. ... or SBHG levels, or FAI. >This is a world away from saying that soy isoflavones don't have estrogen-like effects, nor interact or effect estrogen receptors, nor have a negative effect on the brain. Well, no, it's not a world away from that, because one of the major effects of estrogen on men is to affect androgen levels, so if these isoflavones don't do that, then it is unlikely that they are affecting the body the same way that estrogen does. It doesn't rule out the possibility that soy isoflavones affect the human body, but it puts a huge hole in the entire basis for thinking that they might.

drharris 14y ago

Well, from the perspective of an omnivore, soy would be a huge improvement over chicken in the estrogen department. The hormones added to make chicken breasts plump up tend to result in fulfilling the prophecy "you are what you eat".

hollerith 14y ago
What is your evidence that chicken contains more estrogen-like compounds than soy? That hormones given to chickens cause chicken breasts to "plump up"?

syedkarim 14y ago

"but the company says it will focus on other non-soy options in the future" http://www.thekitchn.com/twitter-co-founders-betting-big-on-a-beyond-meat-a-vegan-meat-startup-food-news-172811 http://www.thekitchn.com/twitter-co-founders-betting-big-on-...