5 ms·

Well, what will happen, is that programmers will become experts at prompt engineering, which will become a real discipline (remember when “software engineering”

Well, what will happen, is that programmers will become experts at prompt engineering, which will become a real discipline (remember when “software engineering” was a weird niche?). They will blow away the companies that rely on “seat of the pants,” undisciplined prompting. I’m someone that started on Machine Language, and now programs in high-level languages. I remember when we couldn’t imagine programming without IRQs and accumulators. As always, ML will become another tool for multiplying the capabilities of humans (not replacing them). CEOs have been dreaming for decades about firing all their employees, and replacing them with some kind of automation. The ones that succeed, are the ones that “embrace the suck,” so to speak, and figure out how to combine humans with technology.

BossingAround 2y ago
What is the actual engineering discipline that goes into creating prompts? Other than providing more context, hacking the data with keywords like "please", etc?
- ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
  I am not a prompt engineer, but I have basically been using ChatGPT, in place of where I used to use StackOverflow. It’s nice, because the AI doesn’t sneer at me, for not already knowing the answer, and has useful information in a wide range of topics that I don’t know. I have learned to create a text file, and develop my questions as detailed documents, with a context establishing preamble, a goal-oriented body, and a specific result request conclusion. I submit the document as a whole, to initiate the interaction. That usually gets me 90% of the way, and a few follow-up questions get me where I want. But I still need to carefully consider the output, and do the work to understand and adapt it (just like with StackOverflow). One example is from a couple of days ago. I’m writing a companion Watch app, for one of my phone apps. Watch programming is done, using SwiftUI, which has really bad documentation. I’m still very much in the learning phase for it. I encountered one of those places, where I could “kludge” something, but it doesn’t “feel” right, and there are almost no useful heuristics for it, so I asked ChatGPT. It gave me specific guidance, applying the correct concept, but using a deprecated API. I responded, saying something like “Unfortunately, your solution is deprecated.” It then said “You’re right. As of WatchOS 10, the correct approach is…”. Anyone with experience using SO, will understand how valuable that interaction is. You can also ask it to explain why it recommends an approach, and it will actually tell you, as opposed to brushing you off with a veiled insult.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
Nullabillity 2y ago
This is like arguing that surely we can get rid of all our formers as soon as we have a widespread enough caste of priests. There is no such thing as "prompt engineering", because there is no formal logic to be understood or engineered into submission. That's just not how it works.
- ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
  I remember saying the same about higher-level languages. Discipline can be applied to any endeavor.
  - Nullabillity 2y ago
    Higher-level languages still operate according to defined rules and logic, even if we can sometimes disagree with those rules, and it still takes time to learn the implications of those rules. AI prompts.. do not. It's fundamentally just not how the technology works.
    - ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
      Time will tell. I still believe that we can approach even the most chaotic conditions, with a disciplined strategy. I’ve seen it happen, many times.
- williamcotton 2y ago
  There's plenty of tacit knowledge in engineering. Being good at debugging a system is based more on experience and gut feelings than following some kind of formal logic. LLMs are quite useful debugging assistants. Using an LLM to assist with such tasks takes tacit knowledge itself. The internal statistical models generated during training are capable of applying higher-ordered pattern matching that while informal are still quite useful. Learning how to use these tools is a skill.
mrkeen 2y ago
We also managed to get rid of JavaScript like 15 years ago, with major backend technologies providing their own compile-to-js frameworks. But JS outlived them, because it's the whole write-run-read-debug cycle, whereas the frameworks only gave you write-run.
- ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
  It’s been my experience that JS has been used to replace a lot of lower-level languages (with mixed results, to say the least). But JS/TypeScript is now an enterprise language (a statement that I never thought I’d say), with a huge base of expert, disciplined, and experienced programmers.
guiriduro 2y ago
The ability of LLMs to replicate MBA CEO-speak and the kinds of activities the C-suite engage in is arguably superior to their ability to write computer programs and displace programmers, so on a replicated-skills basis LLMs should pose a greater risk to CEOs. Of course, CEO success is only loosely aligned with ability, nor can LLMs obtain the "who you know" aspect from reflection alone.

BossingAround 2y ago

What is the actual engineering discipline that goes into creating prompts? Other than providing more context, hacking the data with keywords like "please", etc?

ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
I am not a prompt engineer, but I have basically been using ChatGPT, in place of where I used to use StackOverflow. It’s nice, because the AI doesn’t sneer at me, for not already knowing the answer, and has useful information in a wide range of topics that I don’t know. I have learned to create a text file, and develop my questions as detailed documents, with a context establishing preamble, a goal-oriented body, and a specific result request conclusion. I submit the document as a whole, to initiate the interaction. That usually gets me 90% of the way, and a few follow-up questions get me where I want. But I still need to carefully consider the output, and do the work to understand and adapt it (just like with StackOverflow). One example is from a couple of days ago. I’m writing a companion Watch app, for one of my phone apps. Watch programming is done, using SwiftUI, which has really bad documentation. I’m still very much in the learning phase for it. I encountered one of those places, where I could “kludge” something, but it doesn’t “feel” right, and there are almost no useful heuristics for it, so I asked ChatGPT. It gave me specific guidance, applying the correct concept, but using a deprecated API. I responded, saying something like “Unfortunately, your solution is deprecated.” It then said “You’re right. As of WatchOS 10, the correct approach is…”. Anyone with experience using SO, will understand how valuable that interaction is. You can also ask it to explain why it recommends an approach, and it will actually tell you, as opposed to brushing you off with a veiled insult.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

Nullabillity 2y ago

This is like arguing that surely we can get rid of all our formers as soon as we have a widespread enough caste of priests. There is no such thing as "prompt engineering", because there is no formal logic to be understood or engineered into submission. That's just not how it works.

ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
I remember saying the same about higher-level languages. Discipline can be applied to any endeavor.
- Nullabillity 2y ago
  Higher-level languages still operate according to defined rules and logic, even if we can sometimes disagree with those rules, and it still takes time to learn the implications of those rules. AI prompts.. do not. It's fundamentally just not how the technology works.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
    Time will tell. I still believe that we can approach even the most chaotic conditions, with a disciplined strategy. I’ve seen it happen, many times.
williamcotton 2y ago
There's plenty of tacit knowledge in engineering. Being good at debugging a system is based more on experience and gut feelings than following some kind of formal logic. LLMs are quite useful debugging assistants. Using an LLM to assist with such tasks takes tacit knowledge itself. The internal statistical models generated during training are capable of applying higher-ordered pattern matching that while informal are still quite useful. Learning how to use these tools is a skill.

mrkeen 2y ago

We also managed to get rid of JavaScript like 15 years ago, with major backend technologies providing their own compile-to-js frameworks. But JS outlived them, because it's the whole write-run-read-debug cycle, whereas the frameworks only gave you write-run.

ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
It’s been my experience that JS has been used to replace a lot of lower-level languages (with mixed results, to say the least). But JS/TypeScript is now an enterprise language (a statement that I never thought I’d say), with a huge base of expert, disciplined, and experienced programmers.

guiriduro 2y ago

The ability of LLMs to replicate MBA CEO-speak and the kinds of activities the C-suite engage in is arguably superior to their ability to write computer programs and displace programmers, so on a replicated-skills basis LLMs should pose a greater risk to CEOs. Of course, CEO success is only loosely aligned with ability, nor can LLMs obtain the "who you know" aspect from reflection alone.