4 ms·

I was under the impression it saves them money. Is that correct? It is also a powerplay. By potentially introducing a PSU connector AMD and Intel do not use th

by onli 2y ago

I was under the impression it saves them money. Is that correct? It is also a powerplay. By potentially introducing a PSU connector AMD and Intel do not use they abuse their market power to limit interoperability. Plus probably some internal arrogance about not admitting failures.

rcarmo 2y ago
It saves them money on a four-digit MSRP. I think they could afford to be less thrifty.
bayindirh 2y ago
> Plus probably some internal arrogance about not admitting failures. Arrogance is good. Accelerates the "forced correction" (aka cluebat) process. NVIDIA needs that badly.
formerly_proven 2y ago
I doubt engineering a new connector (I think it's new? Unlike the Mini-Fit Jr which has been around for like 40-50 years) and standing up a supply chain for it could offset the potentially slightly lower BOM cost of using one specialty connector instead of three MiniFit Jr 8-pins. However, three of those would not have been enough for the 4090, nevermind the 5090.
- lyu07282 2y ago
  > three of those would not have been enough for the 4090, nevermind the 5090. Oh you are right these PCIe power connectors can only draw 150W, so you would need 4 of those for 4090/5090. I guess that makes sense then to create a new standard for it actually, hopefully they can make a newer revision of that connector that makes it safer. In theory with the new standard you can have a single cable from the PSU to the GPU instead of 4, which would be a huge improvement. Except if you use those and then your PC catches fire, you will be blamed by the community for it. People on the reddit thread [1] were arguing that it was his own fault for using a "third party" connector. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/1ilhfk0/rtx_5090fe_molten_12vhpwr/ https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/1ilhfk0/rtx_5090fe_...
  - numpad0 2y ago
    The old Mini-Fit takes 10A/pin, or theoretically 480W for 8 pin. Existing PSUs would not be rated for that much current per the PCIe harness, so the connector compatibility has to be intentionally broken for idiot proofing purposes, but connector wise up to 960W before safety margins can be technically supplied fine with just 2x PCIe 8p.
  - slavik81 2y ago
    EPS is practically identical to PCIe, just keyed slightly differently, and it can handle 300W. It's used for the CPU power connector and on some data centre GPUs. I've never been clear on why it didn't take over from the PCIe standard when more power was needed.
fredoralive 2y ago
The connector is a PCI spec, it's not an Nvidia thing, it's just they introduced devices using it first.
- onli 2y ago
  I don't think thats correct. Nvidia used that connector first and then a similar PCI spec came out. Compatibility is limited. See https://www.hwcooling.net/en/nvidia-12pin-and-pcie-5-0-gpu-power-connector-interoperability/ https://www.hwcooling.net/en/nvidia-12pin-and-pcie-5-0-gpu-p... from back then.
  - fredoralive 2y ago
    I'd forgotten about the weird 30 series case, but the 40/50 series ones are the PCI spec connector.
    - kllrnohj 2y ago
      Being a PCI spec connector doesn't mean it isn't an Nvidia thing. It seems pretty likely at this point that Nvidia forced this through, seeing as there's zero other users of this connector. Convincing PCI spec consortium to rubber stamp it probably wasn't very hard for Nvidia to do.
incrudible 2y ago
> By potentially introducing a PSU connector AMD and Intel do not use they abuse their market power to limit interoperability. They are free to use them, they just don’t because it is a stupid connector. The cards that need 600W are gonna need an enormous amount of cooling, therefore they will need a lot of space anyway, no point in making the connector small. Yes, NVIDIA created an amazingly small 5090 FE, but none of the board partners have followed suit, so most customers will see no benefit at all.
numpad0 2y ago
That's the majority understanding, but I suspect it was a simple "update" into "same" connector - the old one was a product called Molex Mini-Fit, and the new one is their newer Micro-Fit connector.
beeflet 2y ago
>By potentially introducing a PSU connector AMD and Intel do not use they abuse their market power to limit interoperability. I suppose but this could be overcome by AMD/Intel shipping an adapter cable

by onli 2y ago

rcarmo 2y ago

It saves them money on a four-digit MSRP. I think they could afford to be less thrifty.

bayindirh 2y ago

> Plus probably some internal arrogance about not admitting failures. Arrogance is good. Accelerates the "forced correction" (aka cluebat) process. NVIDIA needs that badly.

formerly_proven 2y ago

I doubt engineering a new connector (I think it's new? Unlike the Mini-Fit Jr which has been around for like 40-50 years) and standing up a supply chain for it could offset the potentially slightly lower BOM cost of using one specialty connector instead of three MiniFit Jr 8-pins. However, three of those would not have been enough for the 4090, nevermind the 5090.

lyu07282 2y ago
> three of those would not have been enough for the 4090, nevermind the 5090. Oh you are right these PCIe power connectors can only draw 150W, so you would need 4 of those for 4090/5090. I guess that makes sense then to create a new standard for it actually, hopefully they can make a newer revision of that connector that makes it safer. In theory with the new standard you can have a single cable from the PSU to the GPU instead of 4, which would be a huge improvement. Except if you use those and then your PC catches fire, you will be blamed by the community for it. People on the reddit thread [1] were arguing that it was his own fault for using a "third party" connector. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/1ilhfk0/rtx_5090fe_molten_12vhpwr/ https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/1ilhfk0/rtx_5090fe_...
- numpad0 2y ago
  The old Mini-Fit takes 10A/pin, or theoretically 480W for 8 pin. Existing PSUs would not be rated for that much current per the PCIe harness, so the connector compatibility has to be intentionally broken for idiot proofing purposes, but connector wise up to 960W before safety margins can be technically supplied fine with just 2x PCIe 8p.
- slavik81 2y ago
  EPS is practically identical to PCIe, just keyed slightly differently, and it can handle 300W. It's used for the CPU power connector and on some data centre GPUs. I've never been clear on why it didn't take over from the PCIe standard when more power was needed.

fredoralive 2y ago

The connector is a PCI spec, it's not an Nvidia thing, it's just they introduced devices using it first.

onli 2y ago
I don't think thats correct. Nvidia used that connector first and then a similar PCI spec came out. Compatibility is limited. See https://www.hwcooling.net/en/nvidia-12pin-and-pcie-5-0-gpu-power-connector-interoperability/ https://www.hwcooling.net/en/nvidia-12pin-and-pcie-5-0-gpu-p... from back then.
- fredoralive 2y ago
  I'd forgotten about the weird 30 series case, but the 40/50 series ones are the PCI spec connector.
  - kllrnohj 2y ago
    Being a PCI spec connector doesn't mean it isn't an Nvidia thing. It seems pretty likely at this point that Nvidia forced this through, seeing as there's zero other users of this connector. Convincing PCI spec consortium to rubber stamp it probably wasn't very hard for Nvidia to do.

incrudible 2y ago

> By potentially introducing a PSU connector AMD and Intel do not use they abuse their market power to limit interoperability. They are free to use them, they just don’t because it is a stupid connector. The cards that need 600W are gonna need an enormous amount of cooling, therefore they will need a lot of space anyway, no point in making the connector small. Yes, NVIDIA created an amazingly small 5090 FE, but none of the board partners have followed suit, so most customers will see no benefit at all.

numpad0 2y ago

That's the majority understanding, but I suspect it was a simple "update" into "same" connector - the old one was a product called Molex Mini-Fit, and the new one is their newer Micro-Fit connector.

beeflet 2y ago

>By potentially introducing a PSU connector AMD and Intel do not use they abuse their market power to limit interoperability. I suppose but this could be overcome by AMD/Intel shipping an adapter cable