5 ms·

In this case it would be the fact that the order is unconstitutional.

by mmcwilliams 2y ago

firesteelrain 2y ago
How is it unconstitutional?
- b0in 2y ago
  The "coinage clause" of the Constitution. https://constitution.findlaw.com/article1/annotation37.html https://constitution.findlaw.com/article1/annotation37.html > Article I, Section 8, Clause 5 is known as the coinage clause. It gives Congress the exclusive power to coin money. The Supreme Court has also interpreted clause 5 as giving Congress the sole authority to regulate every aspect of United States currency. That supreme court interpretation is from 1820 so it's both "settled law" and "an outdated ruling", depending on who you ask.
  - cheeseomlit 2y ago
    Doesnt that make the fed unconstitutional as well?
    - NoGravitas 2y ago
      No, but only because it was officially created by act of Congress: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Act
  - firesteelrain 2y ago
    This doesn't eliminate the penny, just pausing production of it. If he had unilaterally declared the penny no longer valuable then that would be unconstitional and require an act of congress
    - Salgat 2y ago
      The distinction you make is irrelevant since both are under Congress' responsibility. The president has no constitutional authority to determine which currency is minted and how much of it is minted.
      - firesteelrain 2y ago
        Secretary of Treasury works for President. https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title31/subtitle4/chapter51&edition=prelim https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title31/sub... This law does not mandate continuous minting. So I think you are wrong that the Secretary of Treasury does not have the ability to say how much of a coin is produced day to day. Legal scholars, such as Laurence H. Tribe, have noted that U.S. law grants the Treasury Secretary the authority to determine the quantities of coinage necessary to meet the needs of the United States. Therefore, if the Secretary decides that the required amount for a particular coin is zero, they are within their legal rights to stop its production.
  - dark_glass 2y ago
    Congress does not mint coins, and this order does not coin new currency. They are separate concerns.
atombender 2y ago
The Constitution doesn't say anything about denominations, metals, and so on. That's under Title 31 of the U.S. code, section 5111-5112, "Minting and issuing coins, medals, and numismatic items", which grants the Secretary of the Treasury control over how much to mint, and in the case of denominations, it says the Secretary "may" (not "must") mint them. The Secretary can simply decide to not mint any.
- viraptor 2y ago
  The change itself is ok. The issue is who can make the change, and that would be congress not the president.
  - atombender 2y ago
    Title 31 says the Secretary of the Treasure can. The Secretary cannot permanently cancel the penny, but they can stop making them.
    - viraptor 2y ago
      That's mentioned in the article as a "might". Let's see in practice.

In this case it would be the fact that the order is unconstitutional.

firesteelrain 2y ago

How is it unconstitutional?

b0in 2y ago
The "coinage clause" of the Constitution. https://constitution.findlaw.com/article1/annotation37.html https://constitution.findlaw.com/article1/annotation37.html > Article I, Section 8, Clause 5 is known as the coinage clause. It gives Congress the exclusive power to coin money. The Supreme Court has also interpreted clause 5 as giving Congress the sole authority to regulate every aspect of United States currency. That supreme court interpretation is from 1820 so it's both "settled law" and "an outdated ruling", depending on who you ask.
- cheeseomlit 2y ago
  Doesnt that make the fed unconstitutional as well?
  - NoGravitas 2y ago
    No, but only because it was officially created by act of Congress: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Act
- firesteelrain 2y ago
  This doesn't eliminate the penny, just pausing production of it. If he had unilaterally declared the penny no longer valuable then that would be unconstitional and require an act of congress
  - Salgat 2y ago
    The distinction you make is irrelevant since both are under Congress' responsibility. The president has no constitutional authority to determine which currency is minted and how much of it is minted.
    - firesteelrain 2y ago
      Secretary of Treasury works for President. https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title31/subtitle4/chapter51&edition=prelim https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title31/sub... This law does not mandate continuous minting. So I think you are wrong that the Secretary of Treasury does not have the ability to say how much of a coin is produced day to day. Legal scholars, such as Laurence H. Tribe, have noted that U.S. law grants the Treasury Secretary the authority to determine the quantities of coinage necessary to meet the needs of the United States. Therefore, if the Secretary decides that the required amount for a particular coin is zero, they are within their legal rights to stop its production.
- dark_glass 2y ago
  Congress does not mint coins, and this order does not coin new currency. They are separate concerns.

atombender 2y ago

The Constitution doesn't say anything about denominations, metals, and so on. That's under Title 31 of the U.S. code, section 5111-5112, "Minting and issuing coins, medals, and numismatic items", which grants the Secretary of the Treasury control over how much to mint, and in the case of denominations, it says the Secretary "may" (not "must") mint them. The Secretary can simply decide to not mint any.

viraptor 2y ago
The change itself is ok. The issue is who can make the change, and that would be congress not the president.
- atombender 2y ago
  Title 31 says the Secretary of the Treasure can. The Secretary cannot permanently cancel the penny, but they can stop making them.
  - viraptor 2y ago
    That's mentioned in the article as a "might". Let's see in practice.