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In principle, there is an incentive - renters should be picking apartment buildings which are more energy efficient. So buildings should be competing on this me

In principle, there is an incentive - renters should be picking apartment buildings which are more energy efficient. So buildings should be competing on this metric. But, in practice, renters have no reasonable way of knowing which buildings are more efficient. And buildings will not volunteer this information. You could mandate buildings get an energy efficiency assessment. But I imagine that will go the way of carbon credits contracts and such - mostly lies.

cogman10 2y ago
Energy efficiency happens when an apartment is built or remodeled. The right way to improve it is regulations mandating things like minimum insulation. I wouldn't say that an energy efficiency assessment hurts, but it's also limited in what it can do to improve the situation. An apartment built with 0 insulation and natural gas heating just isn't going to be environmentally friendly without completely bulldozing the complex. Transparency is good, but I think most renters really just won't care.
- abdullahkhalids 2y ago
  Many car owners certainly care about gas mileage. It might not be the most important factor but there is some consideration for it. Similarly, renters could care if informed. But cars and apartments are very different products, and you can get somewhat reasonably cheap+accurate estimates of the efficiency of one but not the other. So the whole point is moot.
  - cogman10 2y ago
    Cars will last for 10->15 years roughly before getting switch out. Apartments hang around for anywhere from 100 to 1000 years. The cost of retrofitting energy efficiency is massive compared to the cost of building an apartment with energy efficiency in mind in the first place. That's why striking on new builds is so important. For vehicles, bad gas milage sucks and it should be regulated to keep it down. However, we are talking about products with somewhat short lifecycles destine to be melted down and turned into a new car in the next 20 years.
    - jeffbee 2y ago
      The median car in service in the USA is 13 years old, so I think your mental model of car lifetime is pretty outdated. For cars made today you should figure 22-25 years.
      - cogman10 2y ago
        This says 16->18 [1] Where are you getting 22+? Definitely an update to my mental model though. [1] https://autorecyclingworld.com/what-is-the-lifespan-of-a-vehicle-in-the-usa/#:~:text=The%20average%20lifespan%20of%20vehicles,2023%20across%20the%20United%20States. https://autorecyclingworld.com/what-is-the-lifespan-of-a-veh...
        jeffbee 2y ago
        See recent paper, noting the trend and that the rightmost point of the trend is already 8 years ago. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41560-024-01698-1/figures/4 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41560-024-01698-1/figures/4
        cogman10 2y ago
        Very interesting. I wonder why there's an apparent discrepancy between UK and US life expectancy. The UK has more stop and go traffic, I'd have thought that'd be harder on vehicles.
janalsncm 2y ago
Mandate apartments report typical (median or mean) energy costs. No assessment necessary.
- dredmorbius 2y ago
  You can often get average monthly billing from the utility company on request. My experience is that apartment units tend to have low utility rates anyhow, particularly in larger buildings where only 1 or 2 of 6 surfaces (walls, floor, ceiling) will have any outside exposure. If you're not too particular about temperature, it's often possible to "coast" based on the heating/cooling of your neighbours rather than heating or cooling your own space. Temperate climates such as California further reduce need for interior climate control, though construction is also correspondingly less well weather-proofed (insulated, wrapped, weather-stripped) than in colder, hotter, or more humid climates.
crucialfelix 2y ago
Apartments in the EU and UK are required to have EPC Energy Performance Certificate. By January 2030, all residential buildings in the EU must meet at least an E energy efficiency rating, and by January 2033, this will rise to a D rating or better. By 2040, all buildings must achieve an A or B rating.
newyankee 2y ago
What may be useful is clear law that makes it mandatory to share energy usage over past 3 years or so and the associated costs.

cogman10 2y ago

Energy efficiency happens when an apartment is built or remodeled. The right way to improve it is regulations mandating things like minimum insulation. I wouldn't say that an energy efficiency assessment hurts, but it's also limited in what it can do to improve the situation. An apartment built with 0 insulation and natural gas heating just isn't going to be environmentally friendly without completely bulldozing the complex. Transparency is good, but I think most renters really just won't care.

abdullahkhalids 2y ago
Many car owners certainly care about gas mileage. It might not be the most important factor but there is some consideration for it. Similarly, renters could care if informed. But cars and apartments are very different products, and you can get somewhat reasonably cheap+accurate estimates of the efficiency of one but not the other. So the whole point is moot.
- cogman10 2y ago
  Cars will last for 10->15 years roughly before getting switch out. Apartments hang around for anywhere from 100 to 1000 years. The cost of retrofitting energy efficiency is massive compared to the cost of building an apartment with energy efficiency in mind in the first place. That's why striking on new builds is so important. For vehicles, bad gas milage sucks and it should be regulated to keep it down. However, we are talking about products with somewhat short lifecycles destine to be melted down and turned into a new car in the next 20 years.
  - jeffbee 2y ago
    The median car in service in the USA is 13 years old, so I think your mental model of car lifetime is pretty outdated. For cars made today you should figure 22-25 years.
    - cogman10 2y ago
      This says 16->18 [1] Where are you getting 22+? Definitely an update to my mental model though. [1] https://autorecyclingworld.com/what-is-the-lifespan-of-a-vehicle-in-the-usa/#:~:text=The%20average%20lifespan%20of%20vehicles,2023%20across%20the%20United%20States. https://autorecyclingworld.com/what-is-the-lifespan-of-a-veh...
      - jeffbee 2y ago
        See recent paper, noting the trend and that the rightmost point of the trend is already 8 years ago. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41560-024-01698-1/figures/4 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41560-024-01698-1/figures/4
        cogman10 2y ago
        Very interesting. I wonder why there's an apparent discrepancy between UK and US life expectancy. The UK has more stop and go traffic, I'd have thought that'd be harder on vehicles.

janalsncm 2y ago

Mandate apartments report typical (median or mean) energy costs. No assessment necessary.

dredmorbius 2y ago
You can often get average monthly billing from the utility company on request. My experience is that apartment units tend to have low utility rates anyhow, particularly in larger buildings where only 1 or 2 of 6 surfaces (walls, floor, ceiling) will have any outside exposure. If you're not too particular about temperature, it's often possible to "coast" based on the heating/cooling of your neighbours rather than heating or cooling your own space. Temperate climates such as California further reduce need for interior climate control, though construction is also correspondingly less well weather-proofed (insulated, wrapped, weather-stripped) than in colder, hotter, or more humid climates.

crucialfelix 2y ago

Apartments in the EU and UK are required to have EPC Energy Performance Certificate. By January 2030, all residential buildings in the EU must meet at least an E energy efficiency rating, and by January 2033, this will rise to a D rating or better. By 2040, all buildings must achieve an A or B rating.

newyankee 2y ago

What may be useful is clear law that makes it mandatory to share energy usage over past 3 years or so and the associated costs.