5 ms·

The return of the buffalo is reviving portions of the ecosystem

66 points by geox 2y ago

singingfish 2y ago
Was just talking to a Cambodian wildlife biologist about this very thing last night. In a South East Asian context rather than North American that is.
OptionOfT 2y ago
That's absolutely amazing news. I've seen them (at a distance) in Yellowstone. The photo of the giant pile of bison skulls invokes such a feeling of pure doom. The fact that this happened not because the animals are a nuisance, but to eradicate the people who relied on them is... insane. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bison_hunting#19th-century_bison_hunts_and_near-extinction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bison_hunting#19th-century_bis... As per the history books, only ~100 remained at the end. And what I cannot find a definitive answer on is: are the current bison (not the ones for meat) all descendants of those 100? I do wonder, apart from money, how can a sw engineer contribute to this restoration effort?
- itronitron 2y ago
  You might be interested in the book "Empire of the Summer Moon" >> https://scgwynne.com/product/empire-of-the-summer-moon https://scgwynne.com/product/empire-of-the-summer-moon Although I will strongly caution you that there are some very disturbing details in the book that relate to how some people have mistreated/dehumanized other people. Definitely not okay for children to be reading. The book touches on how the buffalo were hunted, and the types of 'characters' that excelled at it.
- margalabargala 2y ago
  There has been a fair amount of interbreeding with cattle, which means that the current genetic diversity is not as bottlenecked as you would expect, but also means that most existing bison are not "pure bison". While the population was thought to drop to 100, there were several other herds discovered, the lowest the population ever got was probably closer to 1000 than 100.
- dabluecaboose 2y ago
  > The fact that this happened not because the animals are a nuisance, but to eradicate the people who relied on them is... insane. A little of Column A, a little of Column B. The railroads sponsored a lot of bison hunters because the giant herds would block railroad tracks for hours (or days!) at a time. The famed "Buffalo Bill" Cody was one of these hunters. This largely predated General Sherman's bison eradication plan. > I do wonder, apart from money, how can a sw engineer contribute to this restoration effort? It may sound counter-intuitive, but eat bison! The bison's rebound in the most recent 25 years (~30k in 2000 vs ~500k in 2017) is due in large part to ranchers realizing they're profitable.
  - dkkergoog 2y ago
    [dead]
  - tomcam 2y ago
    > It may sound counter-intuitive, but eat bison! So if I want more Scarlett Johanssons…
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    And give Ted Turner his due. He did it partially for meat for Ted’s Montana Grill https://tedturnerreserves.com/press/american-buffalo/ https://tedturnerreserves.com/press/american-buffalo/
    - dabluecaboose 2y ago
      For sure! I have worked with the Vermejo staff, and they are wonderful people.
- abrookewood 2y ago
  That is, without a doubt, one of the most depressing and horrific images I have ever seen.
karaterobot 2y ago
Glad to hear it. Where was I reading that, in dry, infertile places on the prairie where buffalo have been released, you see new plants growing up wherever they go, almost like they're leaving life in their wake? This is one of the arguments for de-extincting mammoths (in addition to it being one of the most metal things modern genetics puts us in reach of).
- jandrese 2y ago
  It makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint that animals that eat grasses should also fertilize the grasses so their food supply remains abundant.
  - HarHarVeryFunny 2y ago
    Sounds like bullshit to me.
- wiml 2y ago
  Okay, but after the mammoths I think we should de-extinct some giant South American ground sloths.
Rujfjtitfnn 2y ago
[flagged]
jandrewrogers 2y ago
The necessity of vast herds of large ungulates have long been recognized as a critical part of the North American ecosystem. Either bison or cattle will demonstrably work. Regions that have largely been abandoned by cattle ranchers, whether due to economics, environmental destruction, or regulation, have been ecologically devastated in the absence of wild bison to fill the ecosystem gap. Bootstrapping new herds of bison in these areas will transform them in a positive way. In the Mountain West, the introduction of free range cattle in areas that were previously off-limits has had a similar effect. This is related to why eliminating beef agriculture in large parts of North America would have limited impact on ungulate methane emissions. Without replacing them with vast herds of bison, which similarly emit methane, the ecosystems die.
- upghost 2y ago
  I wish the article dove into this a little. Very interested in why the large herds are so important. Seems counter-intuitive, you know? Like they would consume lots of resources? Would be very interested in understanding the ecology better. Do you (or anyone) happen to have some resources on this?
  - sethammons 2y ago
    you can regenerate soil with these large herds. It is the trampling of soil under hoof. Millions of tilling animals. This builds up soil. Topsoil in the plains used to be 16+ inches. Now it is under 4. Gone on some places. We removed the way it was re-built when eroded (or in our case, farmed away)
    - tastyfreeze 2y ago
      Topsoil in the plains was many feet prior to the dustbowl. Probably not everywhere but many prairie plants have roots down to 15-20 feet. Topsoil is what we call the upper "living" aerobic portion of soil. It is the portion of soil that participates in nutrient cycling. Roots into subsoil turn it into top soil over time. Tilling kills topsoil. So, its not that all the dirt flew away. Some did, but mostly it just died and turned back into subsoil.
adam_seeliger 2y ago
[dead]
westurner 2y ago
Buffalo: /? buffalo ecosystem impact : https://www.google.com/search?q=buffalo+ecosystem+impact https://www.google.com/search?q=buffalo+ecosystem+impact Wolves: /? wolves yellowstone: https://www.google.com/search?q=wolves+yellowstone https://www.google.com/search?q=wolves+yellowstone ; 120 wolves in 2024 Beavers: "Government planned it 7 years, beavers built a dam in 2 days and saved $1M" (2025) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42938802#42941813 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42938802#42941813 Keystone species: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_species https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_species : > Keystone species play a critical role in maintaining the structure of an ecological community, affecting many other organisms in an ecosystem and helping to determine the types and numbers of various other species in the community. Without keystone species, the ecosystem would be dramatically different or cease to exist altogether. Some keystone species, such as the wolf and lion, are also apex predators. Trophic cascade: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trophic_cascade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trophic_cascade Ecosystem service: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecosystem_service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecosystem_service : > Evaluations of ecosystem services may include assigning an economic value to them.
- floatrock 2y ago
  Good sparknotes of the systems engineering here, thanks!
sriacha 2y ago
See the Buffalo Commons [1], one idea to allow a huge area (139000 mi^2) of the dry part of the Great Plains to return to its former prairie and allow free ranging bison. Rural decline can bring amazing opportunities. Tear down the fences to allow landscape connectivity, restore the American Serengeti. Allow sustainable wild bison harvest like the Alaskan fisheries model. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_Commons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_Commons [2] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/27799233-american-serengeti https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/27799233-american-sereng...

66 points by geox 2y ago

Was just talking to a Cambodian wildlife biologist about this very thing last night. In a South East Asian context rather than North American that is.

OptionOfT 2y ago

That's absolutely amazing news. I've seen them (at a distance) in Yellowstone. The photo of the giant pile of bison skulls invokes such a feeling of pure doom. The fact that this happened not because the animals are a nuisance, but to eradicate the people who relied on them is... insane. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bison_hunting#19th-century_bison_hunts_and_near-extinction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bison_hunting#19th-century_bis... As per the history books, only ~100 remained at the end. And what I cannot find a definitive answer on is: are the current bison (not the ones for meat) all descendants of those 100? I do wonder, apart from money, how can a sw engineer contribute to this restoration effort?

itronitron 2y ago
You might be interested in the book "Empire of the Summer Moon" >> https://scgwynne.com/product/empire-of-the-summer-moon https://scgwynne.com/product/empire-of-the-summer-moon Although I will strongly caution you that there are some very disturbing details in the book that relate to how some people have mistreated/dehumanized other people. Definitely not okay for children to be reading. The book touches on how the buffalo were hunted, and the types of 'characters' that excelled at it.
margalabargala 2y ago
There has been a fair amount of interbreeding with cattle, which means that the current genetic diversity is not as bottlenecked as you would expect, but also means that most existing bison are not "pure bison". While the population was thought to drop to 100, there were several other herds discovered, the lowest the population ever got was probably closer to 1000 than 100.
dabluecaboose 2y ago
> The fact that this happened not because the animals are a nuisance, but to eradicate the people who relied on them is... insane. A little of Column A, a little of Column B. The railroads sponsored a lot of bison hunters because the giant herds would block railroad tracks for hours (or days!) at a time. The famed "Buffalo Bill" Cody was one of these hunters. This largely predated General Sherman's bison eradication plan. > I do wonder, apart from money, how can a sw engineer contribute to this restoration effort? It may sound counter-intuitive, but eat bison! The bison's rebound in the most recent 25 years (~30k in 2000 vs ~500k in 2017) is due in large part to ranchers realizing they're profitable.
- dkkergoog 2y ago
  [dead]
- tomcam 2y ago
  > It may sound counter-intuitive, but eat bison! So if I want more Scarlett Johanssons…
- scarface_74 2y ago
  And give Ted Turner his due. He did it partially for meat for Ted’s Montana Grill https://tedturnerreserves.com/press/american-buffalo/ https://tedturnerreserves.com/press/american-buffalo/
  - dabluecaboose 2y ago
    For sure! I have worked with the Vermejo staff, and they are wonderful people.
abrookewood 2y ago
That is, without a doubt, one of the most depressing and horrific images I have ever seen.

karaterobot 2y ago

Glad to hear it. Where was I reading that, in dry, infertile places on the prairie where buffalo have been released, you see new plants growing up wherever they go, almost like they're leaving life in their wake? This is one of the arguments for de-extincting mammoths (in addition to it being one of the most metal things modern genetics puts us in reach of).

jandrese 2y ago
It makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint that animals that eat grasses should also fertilize the grasses so their food supply remains abundant.
- HarHarVeryFunny 2y ago
  Sounds like bullshit to me.
wiml 2y ago
Okay, but after the mammoths I think we should de-extinct some giant South American ground sloths.

Rujfjtitfnn 2y ago

[flagged]

jandrewrogers 2y ago

The necessity of vast herds of large ungulates have long been recognized as a critical part of the North American ecosystem. Either bison or cattle will demonstrably work. Regions that have largely been abandoned by cattle ranchers, whether due to economics, environmental destruction, or regulation, have been ecologically devastated in the absence of wild bison to fill the ecosystem gap. Bootstrapping new herds of bison in these areas will transform them in a positive way. In the Mountain West, the introduction of free range cattle in areas that were previously off-limits has had a similar effect. This is related to why eliminating beef agriculture in large parts of North America would have limited impact on ungulate methane emissions. Without replacing them with vast herds of bison, which similarly emit methane, the ecosystems die.

upghost 2y ago
I wish the article dove into this a little. Very interested in why the large herds are so important. Seems counter-intuitive, you know? Like they would consume lots of resources? Would be very interested in understanding the ecology better. Do you (or anyone) happen to have some resources on this?
- sethammons 2y ago
  you can regenerate soil with these large herds. It is the trampling of soil under hoof. Millions of tilling animals. This builds up soil. Topsoil in the plains used to be 16+ inches. Now it is under 4. Gone on some places. We removed the way it was re-built when eroded (or in our case, farmed away)
  - tastyfreeze 2y ago
    Topsoil in the plains was many feet prior to the dustbowl. Probably not everywhere but many prairie plants have roots down to 15-20 feet. Topsoil is what we call the upper "living" aerobic portion of soil. It is the portion of soil that participates in nutrient cycling. Roots into subsoil turn it into top soil over time. Tilling kills topsoil. So, its not that all the dirt flew away. Some did, but mostly it just died and turned back into subsoil.

adam_seeliger 2y ago

[dead]

westurner 2y ago

Buffalo: /? buffalo ecosystem impact : https://www.google.com/search?q=buffalo+ecosystem+impact https://www.google.com/search?q=buffalo+ecosystem+impact Wolves: /? wolves yellowstone: https://www.google.com/search?q=wolves+yellowstone https://www.google.com/search?q=wolves+yellowstone ; 120 wolves in 2024 Beavers: "Government planned it 7 years, beavers built a dam in 2 days and saved $1M" (2025) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42938802#42941813 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42938802#42941813 Keystone species: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_species https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_species : > Keystone species play a critical role in maintaining the structure of an ecological community, affecting many other organisms in an ecosystem and helping to determine the types and numbers of various other species in the community. Without keystone species, the ecosystem would be dramatically different or cease to exist altogether. Some keystone species, such as the wolf and lion, are also apex predators. Trophic cascade: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trophic_cascade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trophic_cascade Ecosystem service: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecosystem_service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecosystem_service : > Evaluations of ecosystem services may include assigning an economic value to them.

floatrock 2y ago
Good sparknotes of the systems engineering here, thanks!

sriacha 2y ago

See the Buffalo Commons [1], one idea to allow a huge area (139000 mi^2) of the dry part of the Great Plains to return to its former prairie and allow free ranging bison. Rural decline can bring amazing opportunities. Tear down the fences to allow landscape connectivity, restore the American Serengeti. Allow sustainable wild bison harvest like the Alaskan fisheries model. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_Commons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_Commons [2] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/27799233-american-serengeti https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/27799233-american-sereng...