4 ms·

The Crisis in Tech's Obsession with Junior Talent

21 points by PretzelFisch 2y ago

konradb 2y ago
Unfortunately I couldn't read past the first two paragraphs as it was a member only story.
- tomaytotomato 2y ago
  Same, unfortunately Medium have to pump their user growth figures to justify their existence. I use Freedium to get around it - https://freedium.cfd/https://medium.com/mr-plan-publication/8-out-of-10-senior-engineers-feel-undervalued-the-hidden-crisis-in-techs-obsession-with-junior-fa9cc62b1e8e https://freedium.cfd/https://medium.com/mr-plan-publication/...
- neilv 2y ago
  I wish HN wouldn't upvote posts that are paywalled or require an account to read TFA. I think that the rampant piracy that lets a lot of these slide on HN isn't a good thing.
  - thatguy0900 2y ago
    If it was a ad supported site practically everyone from here visiting would be using adblockers, I don't really see the difference
    - neilv 2y ago
      There are differences (e.g., historical expectations and social contracts, as well as technical nuances of selectively not download vs. outright copyright violation and sometimes CFAA violations of unauthorized access), but I think you have a reasonable point. Surveillance capitalism and adtech really created a mess that's hard to get out of.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
Muromec 2y ago
Maybe you don’t need an architect when quality doesn’t matter and everyone is shipping mvps
- Bjartr 2y ago
  Knowing what constitutes "minimum viable" takes experience.
- bayindirh 2y ago
  The problem is, the architect is the person who can ship that mvp both viably and in minimum time, because building that fast soundly requires experience.
  - Muromec 2y ago
    That assumes you want to optimize time and quality. I was blessed with using the product of MSFT the other day, where pressing the "Save" button in the settings dialog resulted in 403 from the backend that the app simply didn't see. No error message, the loader is still spinning. It wasn't the dark corner or rarely used functionality. People are okay with shipping shit and spending infinite amount of time on it.
    - bayindirh 2y ago
      That deeply bothers me. With all the technology, libraries, frameworks, processes and even with AI, we are supposed to build better software, if not faster. What we do is making the same mistakes over and over again, but piling them faster than ever because we can make a simulated token emitter go brr...
tomaytotomato 2y ago
Freedium bypass paywall link - https://freedium.cfd/https://medium.com/mr-plan-publication/8-out-of-10-senior-engineers-feel-undervalued-the-hidden-crisis-in-techs-obsession-with-junior-fa9cc62b1e8e https://freedium.cfd/https://medium.com/mr-plan-publication/...
oldpersonintx 2y ago
[dead]
nickdothutton 2y ago
Just give me 5 good guys, young or old, ideally a mixture so I can grow some talent organically. Also note, "resource" is not the same as "talent".
yardie 2y ago
My impression has been the opposite. Companies are very reluctant to hire nearly junior anything. So, they kneecap their top, senior developers and pull up the ladder for junior talent. But they are more than eager to pay mid-level developers junior pay.
- fireflash38 2y ago
  Startup or no? I assume that might be the difference.
codr7 2y ago
I'm pretty sure part of the reason is younger people are easier to manipulate and slap around without consequences.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
geremiiah 2y ago
Maybe the author should be more specific because in the job searches I have done of late, my target companies almost never have junior positions open. Admitted, I do more niche stuff, but if you look for example at how NVIDIA hires, what counts as a junior there is a PhD with 3 conference papers, opensource contributions and a prior internship.
neilv 2y ago
> Juniors handle feature work; seniors own system health and complex refactors I'm visualizing "juniors" running around greenfield, flinging their poo everywhere, like druggie nepo babies (then RDD, and run away). Whilst tireless "seniors" have to run around cleaning up totally unnecessary shitshows, with stress and misery. How about: Stop prioritizing headcount quantity over quality, and stop focusing on reducing your unit cost of that headcount. Instead, build good, small teams, of capable and aligned people, who you can trust to do full-lifecycle well, and treat them well, so that they remain aligned and retained.
adsharma 2y ago
> the kind who could debug kernel panics But we don't need a kernel team and we can get by without a support contract (which would cost more than a gray beard). Tech is more willing to pay for senior talent for their social engineering skills to organize junior devs to solve business problems.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

21 points by PretzelFisch 2y ago

konradb 2y ago

Unfortunately I couldn't read past the first two paragraphs as it was a member only story.

tomaytotomato 2y ago
Same, unfortunately Medium have to pump their user growth figures to justify their existence. I use Freedium to get around it - https://freedium.cfd/https://medium.com/mr-plan-publication/8-out-of-10-senior-engineers-feel-undervalued-the-hidden-crisis-in-techs-obsession-with-junior-fa9cc62b1e8e https://freedium.cfd/https://medium.com/mr-plan-publication/...
neilv 2y ago
I wish HN wouldn't upvote posts that are paywalled or require an account to read TFA. I think that the rampant piracy that lets a lot of these slide on HN isn't a good thing.
- thatguy0900 2y ago
  If it was a ad supported site practically everyone from here visiting would be using adblockers, I don't really see the difference
  - neilv 2y ago
    There are differences (e.g., historical expectations and social contracts, as well as technical nuances of selectively not download vs. outright copyright violation and sometimes CFAA violations of unauthorized access), but I think you have a reasonable point. Surveillance capitalism and adtech really created a mess that's hard to get out of.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

Muromec 2y ago

Maybe you don’t need an architect when quality doesn’t matter and everyone is shipping mvps

Bjartr 2y ago
Knowing what constitutes "minimum viable" takes experience.
bayindirh 2y ago
The problem is, the architect is the person who can ship that mvp both viably and in minimum time, because building that fast soundly requires experience.
- Muromec 2y ago
  That assumes you want to optimize time and quality. I was blessed with using the product of MSFT the other day, where pressing the "Save" button in the settings dialog resulted in 403 from the backend that the app simply didn't see. No error message, the loader is still spinning. It wasn't the dark corner or rarely used functionality. People are okay with shipping shit and spending infinite amount of time on it.
  - bayindirh 2y ago
    That deeply bothers me. With all the technology, libraries, frameworks, processes and even with AI, we are supposed to build better software, if not faster. What we do is making the same mistakes over and over again, but piling them faster than ever because we can make a simulated token emitter go brr...

tomaytotomato 2y ago

Freedium bypass paywall link - https://freedium.cfd/https://medium.com/mr-plan-publication/8-out-of-10-senior-engineers-feel-undervalued-the-hidden-crisis-in-techs-obsession-with-junior-fa9cc62b1e8e https://freedium.cfd/https://medium.com/mr-plan-publication/...

oldpersonintx 2y ago

[dead]

nickdothutton 2y ago

Just give me 5 good guys, young or old, ideally a mixture so I can grow some talent organically. Also note, "resource" is not the same as "talent".

yardie 2y ago

My impression has been the opposite. Companies are very reluctant to hire nearly junior anything. So, they kneecap their top, senior developers and pull up the ladder for junior talent. But they are more than eager to pay mid-level developers junior pay.

fireflash38 2y ago
Startup or no? I assume that might be the difference.

codr7 2y ago

I'm pretty sure part of the reason is younger people are easier to manipulate and slap around without consequences.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

geremiiah 2y ago

Maybe the author should be more specific because in the job searches I have done of late, my target companies almost never have junior positions open. Admitted, I do more niche stuff, but if you look for example at how NVIDIA hires, what counts as a junior there is a PhD with 3 conference papers, opensource contributions and a prior internship.

neilv 2y ago

> Juniors handle feature work; seniors own system health and complex refactors I'm visualizing "juniors" running around greenfield, flinging their poo everywhere, like druggie nepo babies (then RDD, and run away). Whilst tireless "seniors" have to run around cleaning up totally unnecessary shitshows, with stress and misery. How about: Stop prioritizing headcount quantity over quality, and stop focusing on reducing your unit cost of that headcount. Instead, build good, small teams, of capable and aligned people, who you can trust to do full-lifecycle well, and treat them well, so that they remain aligned and retained.

adsharma 2y ago

> the kind who could debug kernel panics But we don't need a kernel team and we can get by without a support contract (which would cost more than a gray beard). Tech is more willing to pay for senior talent for their social engineering skills to organize junior devs to solve business problems.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]