6 ms·

Isn't this reconstruction a bit on the slim side? Aquinas was reportedly, let's say, a man of portly presence. I can't find a scholarly source on the matter, a

Isn't this reconstruction a bit on the slim side? Aquinas was reportedly, let's say, a man of portly presence. I can't find a scholarly source on the matter, at the moment, but here are two quotes I found on the website of a nun[1] (no less, so probably written in good faith): > St. Thomas was a huge heavy bull of a man, fat and slow and quiet; very mild and magnanimous but not very sociable; shy, even apart from the humility of holiness; and abstracted, even apart from his occasional and carefully concealed experiences of trance or ecstasy. (G.K. Chesterton) > St. Thomas Aquinas was a compulsive over-eater who was not just fat but morbidly obese and physically grotesque. (Myron Shibley) [1] http://asksistermarymartha.blogspot.com/2009/01/how-fat-was-he-as-fat-as.html http://asksistermarymartha.blogspot.com/2009/01/how-fat-was-... (Fun fact, there's a reference to this in Umberto Eco's The Name of the Rose, alluding to difficulties with the transport of the body over a staircase, which coincides with circumstances of G.K. Chesterton's passing, as described on that page.)

ryukoposting 2y ago
The article discusses this. The researchers admit they can't know for sure if they got that part right. On the other hand, standards for body size were very different 750 years ago than today, so that's certainly part of it. Legends tend to get more exaggerated over time, and the legend of Thomas Aquinas has had plenty of time for exaggeration to build up.
- masswerk 2y ago
  I'm aware of this. But the article gives no reason for this choice. It's rather a "well, couldn't it be" hypothetical, provided as a quote: > “Now, it could be that on the whole we’re a lot larger now than even overweight medievals were, or that St. Thomas was never the portly friar described by his legend,” Father Aquinas quipped, adding, “Regardless, the stories of St. Thomas’ size are probably exaggerated.” This is certainly in stark contrast to the centuries-long traditional notion of Aquinas' appearance, which may require some further detail why and how this choice was made. – I can see why the quoted father Aquinas should be excited by this "angelic" appearance, but this may be hardly sufficient to motivate a scientific choice. Personally, I can't see how the size of the skull (the sole evidence) should or could correlate with body mass.
- Rebelgecko 2y ago
  It's crazy how standards for body size can change over even shorter time periods. I was watching an old game show with Bob Barker and one of the competitions was for people to guess stats about the "average" man, and then run around Hollywood looking for a man who matched that description. So each competitor would guess the average age, height, number of kids, etc. One woman guessed that the average man weighed 180 pounds and Bob Barker mocked her mercilessly for thinking that the average man is such a fatso.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - abecedarius 2y ago
    Similarly, 70s Steve Wozniak was supposed to be kinda chubby, but people this millennium seeing those old photos are like "what? he's totally average?"
    - gadders 2y ago
      He looks semi-hench in the pic on this page with David Lee Roth: https://lamag.com/news/steve-wozniak-us-fest https://lamag.com/news/steve-wozniak-us-fest
  - kenjackson 2y ago
    During the Super Bowl they put up a stat about the size of the average lineman in SB 1 vs now. In SB1 they were 6’3” and about 248lbs (something like that). And now they are 6’6” and 330lbs. That old OLine gets killed in P5 college football now.
    - kjs3 2y ago
      I noticed that as well. Cool stat. And they aren't just big...a lot of them are scary fast. Having a guy like Tylan Grable (6'6, 310) or Tanor Bortolini (6'4, 305) running after you with a sub-5s 40 at the combine has to be terrifying. When I was in college in the mid-80s, one of my fraternity brothers was a scholarship linebacker. A big, fast, strong man. He goes back every couple of years for the big 'meet the new players' event for those associated with the athletic association. He said that if he was that 18yo again in 2025, not only would he not be considered for a D1 scholarship, but he probably couldn't have made the practice squad of our D1 team. He'd be looking hopefully at someplace like Albany State or West Alabama for a scholarship.
- pantalaimon 2y ago
  How about 25000 years ago? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_figurine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_figurine
  - masswerk 2y ago
    This is close to home, geographically speaking (65km). ;-)
TheFreim 2y ago
The idea that St. Thomas Aquinas was "portly" or even obese is likely an exaggeration that occurred over time due to overemphasis of certain aspects of his appearance. Early accounts depict him as being both very tall and strong having a big head, often with a build closer to a wrestler or football player than that of an obese man. As far as I can tell, St. Thomas was certainly an imposing figure but people have decided to engage in exaggerations based on some accounts of his appearance to the detriment of others. For example, one of the earliest works covering St. Thomas' life was written by William de Tocco in the early 14th century, St. Thomas is described as "showing himself a robust and virile man" during manual labor. Contrary to the extremely exaggerated accusations of extreme gluttony by people like Shibley, William de Tocco emphasizes that the physical stature of St. Thomas was in accord with moderate and virtuous conduct which would preclude severe gluttony, "[I]t seems that God had fashioned his body as the noblest of instruments, which St. Thomas always held subservient to acts of virtue and which he never permitted to contravene the judgement of reason." The iconographic tradition is also not uniform, with large variation across the centuries. I'll link some early depictions of St. Thomas Aquinas from the 14th and 15th century that don't match the "morbidly obese" claims: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Lippo_Memmi_-_Triumph_of_St_Thomas_Aquinas_-_WGA15020.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Lippo_Me... https://www.kressfoundation.org/kress-collection/artwork/49819416c14a0f8359a8e1dee3d4fc27721f6320bc9ea3c46f94dce036243d85 https://www.kressfoundation.org/kress-collection/artwork/498... https://catholiceducation.org/en/culture/art/saint-thomas-aquinas-1447-1449.html https://catholiceducation.org/en/culture/art/saint-thomas-aq... https://catholicclassicalict.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/image-3.png https://catholicclassicalict.wordpress.com/wp-content/upload... https://www.wikiart.org/en/fra-angelico/st-thomas-aquinas-1440 https://www.wikiart.org/en/fra-angelico/st-thomas-aquinas-14... There is another source I recall reading recently that gave credence to the thinner depictions, but unfortunately I haven't been able to dig it up.
- abrenuntio 2y ago
  It might be added that Dominicans had the explicit calling to crown their preaching by leading virtuous lives marked by poverty. As an example of this, especially in the early days, Dominicans traveled a lot by foot as a form of austerity. This could certainly work with having a bit of a girth, but the full experience of 13th century Dominican life is hard to square with "morbid obesity" or being "physically grotesque". We also know that Aquinas was humble, spiritual and deeply motivated to join this new mendicant order specifically. He resisted all attempts of his noble family to steer him in other directions that would have been more prestigious in the eyes of the world. I also remember reading that Aquinas ate only once a day to devote himself more fully to his work (not sure where though).
michaelsbradley 2y ago
It’s been awhile since I saw reference to Sister Mary Martha. SMM is (was — inactive for 10 years now) an online persona and it’s not clear if the blogger was actually a religious sister. The blog’s content seems intended mainly as entertainment.
argentier 2y ago
Chesterton described Aquinas as looking quite like Chesterton. Judging by the name at least half a millenium separates Myron Shibley from Aquinas. Can't it just be a myth, as it seems to hang on a single anecdote? For comparison, the medievals thought that Ovid's name, Publius Ovidius Naso, was because he had a good nose for sniffing out the truth.
- taurknaut 2y ago
  > Chesterton described Aquinas as looking quite like Chesterton. I was unaware that Chesterton met Aquinas! He must have been quite old at that point. I can't imagine anything that Chesterton could add to this conversation. He's reading the same texts the rest of us are. TBH this pretty much sums up his entire career.
  - michaelsbradley 2y ago
    Tastes differ, certainly. Have you read any of Chesterton’s novels, e.g. The Man Who Was Thursday?
    - taurknaut 2y ago
      Yes, he's an amazing writer regardless of his target. I primarily think of his christian apologetic work, though, hence why I was teasing his obsession with western (and particularly christian) text. I love Chesterton. I was just ribbing him. It's not terribly difficult.
- masswerk 2y ago
  Of course, this is by no means historic evidence, it's more an example of the common notion of his appearance – and, admittedly, a rather extreme one. (And, as already mentioned, Umberto Eco kind of made fun of the semblance.) Regarding Ovid's name, I think, there was kind of a joy in circular evidence, more for aesthetic reasons than others. Compare, "artifex generale nomen vocatur quod artem faciat" (Isidore), or the notion that the lion indeed obscures its tracks by wiping its path by its wagging tail, because the lion is thus the example of Christianity preserving its secrets from its pagan enemies. There's a medieval joy, even satisfaction, in closures and folds, like this.

ryukoposting 2y ago

The article discusses this. The researchers admit they can't know for sure if they got that part right. On the other hand, standards for body size were very different 750 years ago than today, so that's certainly part of it. Legends tend to get more exaggerated over time, and the legend of Thomas Aquinas has had plenty of time for exaggeration to build up.

masswerk 2y ago
I'm aware of this. But the article gives no reason for this choice. It's rather a "well, couldn't it be" hypothetical, provided as a quote: > “Now, it could be that on the whole we’re a lot larger now than even overweight medievals were, or that St. Thomas was never the portly friar described by his legend,” Father Aquinas quipped, adding, “Regardless, the stories of St. Thomas’ size are probably exaggerated.” This is certainly in stark contrast to the centuries-long traditional notion of Aquinas' appearance, which may require some further detail why and how this choice was made. – I can see why the quoted father Aquinas should be excited by this "angelic" appearance, but this may be hardly sufficient to motivate a scientific choice. Personally, I can't see how the size of the skull (the sole evidence) should or could correlate with body mass.
Rebelgecko 2y ago
It's crazy how standards for body size can change over even shorter time periods. I was watching an old game show with Bob Barker and one of the competitions was for people to guess stats about the "average" man, and then run around Hollywood looking for a man who matched that description. So each competitor would guess the average age, height, number of kids, etc. One woman guessed that the average man weighed 180 pounds and Bob Barker mocked her mercilessly for thinking that the average man is such a fatso.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- abecedarius 2y ago
  Similarly, 70s Steve Wozniak was supposed to be kinda chubby, but people this millennium seeing those old photos are like "what? he's totally average?"
  - gadders 2y ago
    He looks semi-hench in the pic on this page with David Lee Roth: https://lamag.com/news/steve-wozniak-us-fest https://lamag.com/news/steve-wozniak-us-fest
- kenjackson 2y ago
  During the Super Bowl they put up a stat about the size of the average lineman in SB 1 vs now. In SB1 they were 6’3” and about 248lbs (something like that). And now they are 6’6” and 330lbs. That old OLine gets killed in P5 college football now.
  - kjs3 2y ago
    I noticed that as well. Cool stat. And they aren't just big...a lot of them are scary fast. Having a guy like Tylan Grable (6'6, 310) or Tanor Bortolini (6'4, 305) running after you with a sub-5s 40 at the combine has to be terrifying. When I was in college in the mid-80s, one of my fraternity brothers was a scholarship linebacker. A big, fast, strong man. He goes back every couple of years for the big 'meet the new players' event for those associated with the athletic association. He said that if he was that 18yo again in 2025, not only would he not be considered for a D1 scholarship, but he probably couldn't have made the practice squad of our D1 team. He'd be looking hopefully at someplace like Albany State or West Alabama for a scholarship.
pantalaimon 2y ago
How about 25000 years ago? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_figurine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_figurine
- masswerk 2y ago
  This is close to home, geographically speaking (65km). ;-)

TheFreim 2y ago

The idea that St. Thomas Aquinas was "portly" or even obese is likely an exaggeration that occurred over time due to overemphasis of certain aspects of his appearance. Early accounts depict him as being both very tall and strong having a big head, often with a build closer to a wrestler or football player than that of an obese man. As far as I can tell, St. Thomas was certainly an imposing figure but people have decided to engage in exaggerations based on some accounts of his appearance to the detriment of others. For example, one of the earliest works covering St. Thomas' life was written by William de Tocco in the early 14th century, St. Thomas is described as "showing himself a robust and virile man" during manual labor. Contrary to the extremely exaggerated accusations of extreme gluttony by people like Shibley, William de Tocco emphasizes that the physical stature of St. Thomas was in accord with moderate and virtuous conduct which would preclude severe gluttony, "[I]t seems that God had fashioned his body as the noblest of instruments, which St. Thomas always held subservient to acts of virtue and which he never permitted to contravene the judgement of reason." The iconographic tradition is also not uniform, with large variation across the centuries. I'll link some early depictions of St. Thomas Aquinas from the 14th and 15th century that don't match the "morbidly obese" claims: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Lippo_Memmi_-_Triumph_of_St_Thomas_Aquinas_-_WGA15020.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Lippo_Me... https://www.kressfoundation.org/kress-collection/artwork/49819416c14a0f8359a8e1dee3d4fc27721f6320bc9ea3c46f94dce036243d85 https://www.kressfoundation.org/kress-collection/artwork/498... https://catholiceducation.org/en/culture/art/saint-thomas-aquinas-1447-1449.html https://catholiceducation.org/en/culture/art/saint-thomas-aq... https://catholicclassicalict.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/image-3.png https://catholicclassicalict.wordpress.com/wp-content/upload... https://www.wikiart.org/en/fra-angelico/st-thomas-aquinas-1440 https://www.wikiart.org/en/fra-angelico/st-thomas-aquinas-14... There is another source I recall reading recently that gave credence to the thinner depictions, but unfortunately I haven't been able to dig it up.

abrenuntio 2y ago
It might be added that Dominicans had the explicit calling to crown their preaching by leading virtuous lives marked by poverty. As an example of this, especially in the early days, Dominicans traveled a lot by foot as a form of austerity. This could certainly work with having a bit of a girth, but the full experience of 13th century Dominican life is hard to square with "morbid obesity" or being "physically grotesque". We also know that Aquinas was humble, spiritual and deeply motivated to join this new mendicant order specifically. He resisted all attempts of his noble family to steer him in other directions that would have been more prestigious in the eyes of the world. I also remember reading that Aquinas ate only once a day to devote himself more fully to his work (not sure where though).

michaelsbradley 2y ago

It’s been awhile since I saw reference to Sister Mary Martha. SMM is (was — inactive for 10 years now) an online persona and it’s not clear if the blogger was actually a religious sister. The blog’s content seems intended mainly as entertainment.

argentier 2y ago

Chesterton described Aquinas as looking quite like Chesterton. Judging by the name at least half a millenium separates Myron Shibley from Aquinas. Can't it just be a myth, as it seems to hang on a single anecdote? For comparison, the medievals thought that Ovid's name, Publius Ovidius Naso, was because he had a good nose for sniffing out the truth.

taurknaut 2y ago
> Chesterton described Aquinas as looking quite like Chesterton. I was unaware that Chesterton met Aquinas! He must have been quite old at that point. I can't imagine anything that Chesterton could add to this conversation. He's reading the same texts the rest of us are. TBH this pretty much sums up his entire career.
- michaelsbradley 2y ago
  Tastes differ, certainly. Have you read any of Chesterton’s novels, e.g. The Man Who Was Thursday?
  - taurknaut 2y ago
    Yes, he's an amazing writer regardless of his target. I primarily think of his christian apologetic work, though, hence why I was teasing his obsession with western (and particularly christian) text. I love Chesterton. I was just ribbing him. It's not terribly difficult.
masswerk 2y ago
Of course, this is by no means historic evidence, it's more an example of the common notion of his appearance – and, admittedly, a rather extreme one. (And, as already mentioned, Umberto Eco kind of made fun of the semblance.) Regarding Ovid's name, I think, there was kind of a joy in circular evidence, more for aesthetic reasons than others. Compare, "artifex generale nomen vocatur quod artem faciat" (Isidore), or the notion that the lion indeed obscures its tracks by wiping its path by its wagging tail, because the lion is thus the example of Christianity preserving its secrets from its pagan enemies. There's a medieval joy, even satisfaction, in closures and folds, like this.