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It bugs me no end because in every debate about public/private ownership people maintain these wild fantasies that governments can handle long term thinking and

by roenxi 2y ago

It bugs me no end because in every debate about public/private ownership people maintain these wild fantasies that governments can handle long term thinking and capitalists can't. But frequently the story is like this one, it turns out the institutions of capitalism have longer planning time horizons than the public does. Turns out that low-bandwidth-low-expertise systems like public voting doesn't lead to focused technical excellence. I'm not dead set against municipal utilities because a municipality is so small reasonably motivated people can actually make a big impact. But a competitive free market is still better because if the incumbent is so incompetent that a total system failure is likely there is the biggest opportunity for someone to head the crisis off before it eventuates.

yapyap 2y ago
> But a competitive free market is still better emphasis on competitive there, which these types of things tend not to be
- foobarchu 2y ago
  Particularly when incumbents are able to lobby government bodies to grant them monopolies, see the electric and internet markets, and formerly the telephone market.
wesselbindt 2y ago
> governments can handle long term thinking and capitalists can't I don't think anyone is arguing against the long term planning capabilities of capitalists. The disagreement is about whether their plans are beneficial to society. For example, take the case of the aggressive marketing for baby formula that nestle carried out in the third world. Very forward thinking long term strategy, and innovative too: Other baby formula vendors were not focussing on these nations. The outcome was twofold. On the one hand, higher profits for nestle, and on the other, increased infant mortality in the targeted nations. Now, whether that outcome was desirable is entirely up for debate. Me, personally, I'm not a huge fan of infant mortality, but to each their own. What is not up for debate is that nestle engaged in some effective long term strategizing.
marcus_holmes 2y ago
Politicians are notorious for only seeing as far as the next election. Shareholders are notorious for only the seeing the business as a speculative asset to be flipped for a profit. Governments clearly can handle long-term thinking, as can private companies. But only if they're left alone to do that.
- roenxi 2y ago
  You've missed the key stakeholder group - shareholders have to find a Buyer to flip something for a profit, who cares about the longer term prospects of the business. The buyer is not prefect, but they're better incentivised than anyone else.
  - marcus_holmes 2y ago
    Unless of course the Buyer is another speculator who is only interested in flipping the business for a short-term profit
- dragonwriter 2y ago
  You mean, bureaucracies: without the politicians or shareholders you want to leave them alone, they aren’t governments or companies, just blind bureaucracies, with no long term goal to plan for but the perpetuation of the bureaucracy.
  - marcus_holmes 2y ago
    I like to think there's a middle ground somewhere between speculators and bureaucracies; a group of people who are actually interested and incentivised to serve the customer and perform the function of the organisation to the best of their ability. I may be too naive.
    - dragonwriter 2y ago
      The existence of such people isn't (I don't think) in question, the question is how you organize a system so that their being in a position to run an organization isn't an unstable, non-equilibrium state. It is not just bad luck or accident that businesses at scale, while they may temporarily be run by idealists of that or other stripes, either fail or end up run by people whose interests is in having the organization run as an optimized profit-returning (either directly or by increasing stock value so that investors can realize gains by liquidating some part of their holdings) machine above all else. It is the structural incentives of the system in which they operate.

by roenxi 2y ago

yapyap 2y ago

> But a competitive free market is still better emphasis on competitive there, which these types of things tend not to be

foobarchu 2y ago
Particularly when incumbents are able to lobby government bodies to grant them monopolies, see the electric and internet markets, and formerly the telephone market.

wesselbindt 2y ago

> governments can handle long term thinking and capitalists can't I don't think anyone is arguing against the long term planning capabilities of capitalists. The disagreement is about whether their plans are beneficial to society. For example, take the case of the aggressive marketing for baby formula that nestle carried out in the third world. Very forward thinking long term strategy, and innovative too: Other baby formula vendors were not focussing on these nations. The outcome was twofold. On the one hand, higher profits for nestle, and on the other, increased infant mortality in the targeted nations. Now, whether that outcome was desirable is entirely up for debate. Me, personally, I'm not a huge fan of infant mortality, but to each their own. What is not up for debate is that nestle engaged in some effective long term strategizing.

marcus_holmes 2y ago

Politicians are notorious for only seeing as far as the next election. Shareholders are notorious for only the seeing the business as a speculative asset to be flipped for a profit. Governments clearly can handle long-term thinking, as can private companies. But only if they're left alone to do that.

roenxi 2y ago
You've missed the key stakeholder group - shareholders have to find a Buyer to flip something for a profit, who cares about the longer term prospects of the business. The buyer is not prefect, but they're better incentivised than anyone else.
- marcus_holmes 2y ago
  Unless of course the Buyer is another speculator who is only interested in flipping the business for a short-term profit
dragonwriter 2y ago
You mean, bureaucracies: without the politicians or shareholders you want to leave them alone, they aren’t governments or companies, just blind bureaucracies, with no long term goal to plan for but the perpetuation of the bureaucracy.
- marcus_holmes 2y ago
  I like to think there's a middle ground somewhere between speculators and bureaucracies; a group of people who are actually interested and incentivised to serve the customer and perform the function of the organisation to the best of their ability. I may be too naive.
  - dragonwriter 2y ago
    The existence of such people isn't (I don't think) in question, the question is how you organize a system so that their being in a position to run an organization isn't an unstable, non-equilibrium state. It is not just bad luck or accident that businesses at scale, while they may temporarily be run by idealists of that or other stripes, either fail or end up run by people whose interests is in having the organization run as an optimized profit-returning (either directly or by increasing stock value so that investors can realize gains by liquidating some part of their holdings) machine above all else. It is the structural incentives of the system in which they operate.