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People have had a long time to submit better C# implementations. You are still providing no meaningful evidence. > Do you realize this is not a mutually exclus

People have had a long time to submit better C# implementations. You are still providing no meaningful evidence. > Do you realize this is not a mutually exclusive statement? It doesn’t have to be mutually exclusive. You didn’t seem to understand why people care about ref structs, since you chose to focus on something that is an incidental property, not the reason that ref structs exist.

neonsunset 2y ago
Please read through the description and follow-up articles on the BenchmarksGame website. People did submit benchmarks, but submitting yet another SIMD+unsafe+full parallelization implementation is not the main goal of the project. However, this is precisely the subject (at which Go is inadequate) that we are discussing here. And for it, my suggestions in the previous comment stand.
caspper69 2y ago
Brigading you is not my intent, so please don't take my comments that way. I just want to add that C# is getting pretty fast, and it's not just because people have had a long time to submit better implementations to a benchmark site. The language began laying the groundwork for AOT and higher performance in general with the introduction of Span<T> and friends 7 or so years ago. Since then, they have been making strides on a host of fronts to allow programmers the freedom to express most patterns expected of a low level language, including arbitrary int pointers, pointer arithmetic, typed memory regions, and an unsafe subset. In my day-to-day experience, C# is not as fast as the "big 3" non-GCed languages (C/C++/Rust), especially in traditional application code that might use LINQ, code generation or reflection (which are AOT unfriendly features- i.e. AOT LINQ is interpreted at runtime), but since I don't tend to re-write the same code across multiple languages simultaneously I can't quantify the extent of the current speed differences. I can say, however, that C# has been moving forward every release, and those benchmarks demonstrate that it is separating itself from the Java/Go tier (and I consider Go to be a notch or two above JITed Java, but no personal experience with GraalVM AOT yet) and it definitely feels close to the C/C++/Rust tier. It may not ever attain even partial parity on that front, for a whole host of reasons (its reliance on its own compiler infrastructure and not a gcc or llvm based backend is a big one for me), but the language itself has slowly implemented the necessary constructs for safe (and unsafe) arbitrary memory manipulation, including explicit stack & heap allocation, and the skipping of GC, which are sort of the fundamental "costs of admission" for consideration as a high performance systems language. I don't expect anyone to like or prefer C#, nor do I advocate forcing the language on anyone, and I really hate being such a staunch advocate here on HN (I want to avoid broken record syndrome), but as I have stated many times here, I am a big proponent of programmer ergonomics, and C# really seems to be firing on all cylinders right now (recent core library CVEs notwithstanding).
- coder543 2y ago
  > C# really seems to be firing on all cylinders right now I actually agree completely: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42898372 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42898372 I just don’t like seeing people make bold claims without supporting evidence… those tend to feel self-aggrandizing and/or like tribalism. It also felt like a bad faith argument, so I stopped responding to that other person when there was nothing positive I could say. If the evidence existed, then they should have provided evidence. I asked for evidence. I like C#, just as I like Go and Rust. But languages are tools, and I try to evaluate tools objectively. > I can say, however, that C# has been moving forward every release, and those benchmarks demonstrate that it is separating itself from the Java/Go tier I also agree. I have been following the development of C# for a very long time. I like what I have seen, especially since .NET Core. As I have mentioned in this thread already, C#’s performance is impressive. I just don’t accept a general claim that it’s as fast as Rust at this point, but not every application needs that much performance. I wish I could get some real world experience with C#, I just haven’t found any interesting tech jobs that use C#… and the job market right now doesn’t seem great, unfortunately.
  - caspper69 2y ago
    I have hopes that adoption outside of stodgy enterprises will pick up, which would of course help the job situation (in due time of course). Sometimes it's hard to shake the rep you have when you're now a ~25 year old language. Awareness takes time. People need to be told, then they need to tinker here and there. Either they like what they see when they kick the tires or they don't. I'm pretty language agnostic tbh, but I would like to see it become a bit more fashionable given its modernization efforts, cross-platform support, and MIT license.

neonsunset 2y ago

Please read through the description and follow-up articles on the BenchmarksGame website. People did submit benchmarks, but submitting yet another SIMD+unsafe+full parallelization implementation is not the main goal of the project. However, this is precisely the subject (at which Go is inadequate) that we are discussing here. And for it, my suggestions in the previous comment stand.

caspper69 2y ago

Brigading you is not my intent, so please don't take my comments that way. I just want to add that C# is getting pretty fast, and it's not just because people have had a long time to submit better implementations to a benchmark site. The language began laying the groundwork for AOT and higher performance in general with the introduction of Span<T> and friends 7 or so years ago. Since then, they have been making strides on a host of fronts to allow programmers the freedom to express most patterns expected of a low level language, including arbitrary int pointers, pointer arithmetic, typed memory regions, and an unsafe subset. In my day-to-day experience, C# is not as fast as the "big 3" non-GCed languages (C/C++/Rust), especially in traditional application code that might use LINQ, code generation or reflection (which are AOT unfriendly features- i.e. AOT LINQ is interpreted at runtime), but since I don't tend to re-write the same code across multiple languages simultaneously I can't quantify the extent of the current speed differences. I can say, however, that C# has been moving forward every release, and those benchmarks demonstrate that it is separating itself from the Java/Go tier (and I consider Go to be a notch or two above JITed Java, but no personal experience with GraalVM AOT yet) and it definitely feels close to the C/C++/Rust tier. It may not ever attain even partial parity on that front, for a whole host of reasons (its reliance on its own compiler infrastructure and not a gcc or llvm based backend is a big one for me), but the language itself has slowly implemented the necessary constructs for safe (and unsafe) arbitrary memory manipulation, including explicit stack & heap allocation, and the skipping of GC, which are sort of the fundamental "costs of admission" for consideration as a high performance systems language. I don't expect anyone to like or prefer C#, nor do I advocate forcing the language on anyone, and I really hate being such a staunch advocate here on HN (I want to avoid broken record syndrome), but as I have stated many times here, I am a big proponent of programmer ergonomics, and C# really seems to be firing on all cylinders right now (recent core library CVEs notwithstanding).

coder543 2y ago
> C# really seems to be firing on all cylinders right now I actually agree completely: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42898372 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42898372 I just don’t like seeing people make bold claims without supporting evidence… those tend to feel self-aggrandizing and/or like tribalism. It also felt like a bad faith argument, so I stopped responding to that other person when there was nothing positive I could say. If the evidence existed, then they should have provided evidence. I asked for evidence. I like C#, just as I like Go and Rust. But languages are tools, and I try to evaluate tools objectively. > I can say, however, that C# has been moving forward every release, and those benchmarks demonstrate that it is separating itself from the Java/Go tier I also agree. I have been following the development of C# for a very long time. I like what I have seen, especially since .NET Core. As I have mentioned in this thread already, C#’s performance is impressive. I just don’t accept a general claim that it’s as fast as Rust at this point, but not every application needs that much performance. I wish I could get some real world experience with C#, I just haven’t found any interesting tech jobs that use C#… and the job market right now doesn’t seem great, unfortunately.
- caspper69 2y ago
  I have hopes that adoption outside of stodgy enterprises will pick up, which would of course help the job situation (in due time of course). Sometimes it's hard to shake the rep you have when you're now a ~25 year old language. Awareness takes time. People need to be told, then they need to tinker here and there. Either they like what they see when they kick the tires or they don't. I'm pretty language agnostic tbh, but I would like to see it become a bit more fashionable given its modernization efforts, cross-platform support, and MIT license.