4 ms·

All I can think of when I hear about DOGE is Robert McNamara's Department of Defense, where the "Whiz Kids" from industry and academia were supposed to magicall

All I can think of when I hear about DOGE is Robert McNamara's Department of Defense, where the "Whiz Kids" from industry and academia were supposed to magically fix all sorts of problems with the military's bureaucracy. After all, they went to the right schools, and really, how hard could war-making be? We lost in Vietnam and there are people being born there with birth defects from Operation Ranch Hand to this day partially due to their work, but at least they got to pad out their resumes and were set for life as consultants.

Kinrany 2y ago
> After all, they went to the right school The selection process here appears to have been the opposite of traditional credentialism
- jenny91 2y ago
  It's a new spin on an old idea. Software whiz kids are what a part of society now see as the cream of the crop.
- StackRanker3000 2y ago
  Actually, is it known by which criteria Musk picked these people? Or do we just have speculation? I haven’t read any detailed reporting about that.
- acdha 2y ago
  It’s not the same, but seeing how many of them have prior personal experience working for him or Thiel it looks like a form of old boys network rather than a fair hiring process. Government is supposed to be fair about these things because the stakes are higher due to various legal requirements: for example, suppose that Boeing sued claiming that a Musk appointee helped SpaceX get a contract – even if everything was done in good faith and SpaceX was the better vendor, it could cost a lot and delay projects for years trying to prove that in court. The concerns about things like Treasury data come up in the same context. If someone sues claiming that their data was used incorrectly, if the access was on an official system it will have logs and policies which could be used to show that the same appointee never accessed that data and wouldn’t have been able to send it outside. If the stories about things like personal devices or outside cloud services are true, that may no longer be easy or even possible and a lawsuit might be successful even if they didn’t actually share data with their old boss.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
p3rls 2y ago
The "rationalization" tendency in politics at least goes back beyond McNamara to early progressives, like Robert Moses who reformed Tammany Hall with a technocratic approach that only won him scorn from progressives of the more modern variety. Can check out the current HN thread on healthcare if you want to see some who suffer from this diagnosis.
- ttyprintk 2y ago
  > scorn from progressives of the more modern variety. Assume you’re talking about 99% invisible? https://99percentinvisible.org/club/ https://99percentinvisible.org/club/
internet_points 2y ago
Wow, first time I heard of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbicidal_warfare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbicidal_warfare / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ranch_Hand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ranch_Hand Strangely, there's a dearth of links between that and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiz_Kids_(Department_of_Defense) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiz_Kids_(Department_of_Defen... / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_McNamara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_McNamara
- spacechild1 2y ago
  You never heard of Agent Orange?
  - ttyprintk 2y ago
    If you want to sound old, say aloud “you’ve never heard of Muhammad Ali?”
    - lenerdenator 2y ago
      And that's the scary thing: people aren't aware of the lessons of the past. Not the "past", even; Ali's draft refusal and Operation Ranch Hand were well within a human lifetime of now.
  - internet_points 2y ago
    Can't say for sure I haven't heard the term before (can't claim I'm too young to know, more like old enough to start forgetting), but I did not know they had as a goal to remove whole forests, causing countless deaths by herbicide. The details are always more horrifying than I imagined.
    - spacechild1 2y ago
      That's interesting. Agent Orange and Napalm are two things I immediately associate with the Vietnam War. The countless severe birth defects caused by Agent Orange have been a big topic. (Well, at least outside the US...) In fact, they still happen today! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange#Health_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange#Health_effects

Kinrany 2y ago

> After all, they went to the right school The selection process here appears to have been the opposite of traditional credentialism

jenny91 2y ago
It's a new spin on an old idea. Software whiz kids are what a part of society now see as the cream of the crop.
StackRanker3000 2y ago
Actually, is it known by which criteria Musk picked these people? Or do we just have speculation? I haven’t read any detailed reporting about that.
acdha 2y ago
It’s not the same, but seeing how many of them have prior personal experience working for him or Thiel it looks like a form of old boys network rather than a fair hiring process. Government is supposed to be fair about these things because the stakes are higher due to various legal requirements: for example, suppose that Boeing sued claiming that a Musk appointee helped SpaceX get a contract – even if everything was done in good faith and SpaceX was the better vendor, it could cost a lot and delay projects for years trying to prove that in court. The concerns about things like Treasury data come up in the same context. If someone sues claiming that their data was used incorrectly, if the access was on an official system it will have logs and policies which could be used to show that the same appointee never accessed that data and wouldn’t have been able to send it outside. If the stories about things like personal devices or outside cloud services are true, that may no longer be easy or even possible and a lawsuit might be successful even if they didn’t actually share data with their old boss.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

p3rls 2y ago

The "rationalization" tendency in politics at least goes back beyond McNamara to early progressives, like Robert Moses who reformed Tammany Hall with a technocratic approach that only won him scorn from progressives of the more modern variety. Can check out the current HN thread on healthcare if you want to see some who suffer from this diagnosis.

ttyprintk 2y ago
> scorn from progressives of the more modern variety. Assume you’re talking about 99% invisible? https://99percentinvisible.org/club/ https://99percentinvisible.org/club/

internet_points 2y ago

Wow, first time I heard of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbicidal_warfare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbicidal_warfare / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ranch_Hand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ranch_Hand Strangely, there's a dearth of links between that and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiz_Kids_(Department_of_Defense) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiz_Kids_(Department_of_Defen... / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_McNamara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_McNamara

spacechild1 2y ago
You never heard of Agent Orange?
- ttyprintk 2y ago
  If you want to sound old, say aloud “you’ve never heard of Muhammad Ali?”
  - lenerdenator 2y ago
    And that's the scary thing: people aren't aware of the lessons of the past. Not the "past", even; Ali's draft refusal and Operation Ranch Hand were well within a human lifetime of now.
- internet_points 2y ago
  Can't say for sure I haven't heard the term before (can't claim I'm too young to know, more like old enough to start forgetting), but I did not know they had as a goal to remove whole forests, causing countless deaths by herbicide. The details are always more horrifying than I imagined.
  - spacechild1 2y ago
    That's interesting. Agent Orange and Napalm are two things I immediately associate with the Vietnam War. The countless severe birth defects caused by Agent Orange have been a big topic. (Well, at least outside the US...) In fact, they still happen today! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange#Health_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange#Health_effects