5 ms·

For anyone interested in what the Americas looked like before and after Columbus, I highly recommend the two books, 1491[1] and 1493[2], by Charles C. Mann. I f

For anyone interested in what the Americas looked like before and after Columbus, I highly recommend the two books, 1491[1] and 1493[2], by Charles C. Mann. I finish the first one and I'm half way through the second one and really openend my eyes. Great reads! [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/39020.1491?ref=nav_sb_ss_1_4 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/39020.1491?ref=nav_sb_ss... [2] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/9862761-1493 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/9862761-1493

UI_at_80x24 2y ago
Both books are great. Loved the revelation of planted food forests.
bennyfreshness 2y ago
Also "The Conquest of New Spain" .. written as a first hand account by a soldier for Cortes. Obviously cruel and exploitative what the conquistadors did, but it's an example how fact can be sometimes more incredible than fiction. How a small band of soldiers got in way over their heads and had to bluff and bully their way through, or would have certainly been killed. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/108490.The_Conquest_of_New_Spain https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/108490.The_Conquest_of_N...
- crooked-v 2y ago
  Of course, another major factor there is that just about everyone subject to the Aztecs hated them for a variety of reasons, but most obviously all the raiding/kidnapping and blood sacrifice. That's not to say the Spanish Empire was necessarily better, but their opportunities would have been much slimmer if the Aztecs had been even a little bit less all-around cruel.
- lucretian 2y ago
  if you enjoyed that, i very much recommend this work of historical fiction: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/127938747-you-dreamed-of-empires https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/127938747-you-dreamed-of...
sho_hn 2y ago
Strongly second these recommendations. I enormously enjoyed them for both their information density, but also their extremely clear and proficient writing style. Absolute class journalism.
atombender 2y ago
Also great is The Fall of Civilizations' episode about Tenochtitlan [1]. The podcast is the work of a British historian named Paul M. M. Cooper, who's also published a book derived from the podcast. Each episode is really well researched, incorporating recent discoveries rather than uncritically repeating old tropes. No filler, no theatrics, just really well-told history, backed by real sources. Another excellent history podcast is The Rest is History [2], who also devoted an excellent (albeit much shorter) episode to the same topic. [1] https://fallofcivilizationspodcast.com/ https://fallofcivilizationspodcast.com/ [2] https://therestishistory.com/episodes/ https://therestishistory.com/episodes/
- InDubioProRubio 2y ago
  Is it politics free? As in, no left rewrite of the noble savage? Because all those tribes that instant-joined the conquistadors still negate all that "utopia destroyed by evil europeans" story.
  - jdgoesmarching 2y ago
    Despite being relatively conservative, I don’t think The Rest is History would appeal to someone who thinks any telling of history that doesn’t fit a far-right worldview is “political.” There’s no such thing as politics-free history.
    - InDubioProRubio 2y ago
      But such a world-view wrapped in tales, eternalizes suffering and does refuse to intervene in toxic cultures stuck? Take the middle east- there where two attempts at a two state solution, and the victims of the story, rejected both, wanting a "final" jew free solution. How does one feel contributing to progress - when reality moves so obviously orthogonal to the stories you tell yourself?
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    I think the rest is history did a great job of providing a balanced take in their multi part series on Cortez. They didn't shy away from the brutality on either side of the conquest. That is to say, they explored the context for why so many logal groups allied with Cortez, and the critical role of La Malinche as a translator and former Aztec slave.
fyrepuffs 2y ago
Actually better is the book "The Fifth Sun: A new history of the Aztecs" written in Nahuatl (the Aztec language) and translated by Camille Townsend. It is an account of how the Aztecs viewed conquest, which they didn't see as a conquest initially. Also the descriptions of the city of Tenochitlan indicate that it was just as sophisticated, and cosmopolitan as it is today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Sun:_A_New_History_of_the_Aztecs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Sun:_A_New_History_of_th...
MichaelMoser123 2y ago
there is this song by Randy Newman - the great nations of Europe. I highly recommend it as a history lesson :-( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxNQxu7PWKM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxNQxu7PWKM ... Columbus sailed for India Found Salvador instead He shook hands with some Indians and soon they all were dead They got TB and typhoid and athlete's foot Diphtheria and the flu Excuse me great nations coming through! Hide your wives and daughters Hide your sons as well With the great nations of Europe you never can tell From where you and I are standing At the end of a century Europes have sprung up everywhere as even I can see But there on the horizon as a possibility Some bug from out of Africa might come for you and me Destroying everything in its path From sea to shining sea Like the great nations of Europe In the sixteenth century

UI_at_80x24 2y ago

Both books are great. Loved the revelation of planted food forests.

bennyfreshness 2y ago

Also "The Conquest of New Spain" .. written as a first hand account by a soldier for Cortes. Obviously cruel and exploitative what the conquistadors did, but it's an example how fact can be sometimes more incredible than fiction. How a small band of soldiers got in way over their heads and had to bluff and bully their way through, or would have certainly been killed. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/108490.The_Conquest_of_New_Spain https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/108490.The_Conquest_of_N...

crooked-v 2y ago
Of course, another major factor there is that just about everyone subject to the Aztecs hated them for a variety of reasons, but most obviously all the raiding/kidnapping and blood sacrifice. That's not to say the Spanish Empire was necessarily better, but their opportunities would have been much slimmer if the Aztecs had been even a little bit less all-around cruel.
lucretian 2y ago
if you enjoyed that, i very much recommend this work of historical fiction: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/127938747-you-dreamed-of-empires https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/127938747-you-dreamed-of...

sho_hn 2y ago

Strongly second these recommendations. I enormously enjoyed them for both their information density, but also their extremely clear and proficient writing style. Absolute class journalism.

atombender 2y ago

Also great is The Fall of Civilizations' episode about Tenochtitlan [1]. The podcast is the work of a British historian named Paul M. M. Cooper, who's also published a book derived from the podcast. Each episode is really well researched, incorporating recent discoveries rather than uncritically repeating old tropes. No filler, no theatrics, just really well-told history, backed by real sources. Another excellent history podcast is The Rest is History [2], who also devoted an excellent (albeit much shorter) episode to the same topic. [1] https://fallofcivilizationspodcast.com/ https://fallofcivilizationspodcast.com/ [2] https://therestishistory.com/episodes/ https://therestishistory.com/episodes/

InDubioProRubio 2y ago
Is it politics free? As in, no left rewrite of the noble savage? Because all those tribes that instant-joined the conquistadors still negate all that "utopia destroyed by evil europeans" story.
- jdgoesmarching 2y ago
  Despite being relatively conservative, I don’t think The Rest is History would appeal to someone who thinks any telling of history that doesn’t fit a far-right worldview is “political.” There’s no such thing as politics-free history.
  - InDubioProRubio 2y ago
    But such a world-view wrapped in tales, eternalizes suffering and does refuse to intervene in toxic cultures stuck? Take the middle east- there where two attempts at a two state solution, and the victims of the story, rejected both, wanting a "final" jew free solution. How does one feel contributing to progress - when reality moves so obviously orthogonal to the stories you tell yourself?
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  I think the rest is history did a great job of providing a balanced take in their multi part series on Cortez. They didn't shy away from the brutality on either side of the conquest. That is to say, they explored the context for why so many logal groups allied with Cortez, and the critical role of La Malinche as a translator and former Aztec slave.

fyrepuffs 2y ago

Actually better is the book "The Fifth Sun: A new history of the Aztecs" written in Nahuatl (the Aztec language) and translated by Camille Townsend. It is an account of how the Aztecs viewed conquest, which they didn't see as a conquest initially. Also the descriptions of the city of Tenochitlan indicate that it was just as sophisticated, and cosmopolitan as it is today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Sun:_A_New_History_of_the_Aztecs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Sun:_A_New_History_of_th...

MichaelMoser123 2y ago

there is this song by Randy Newman - the great nations of Europe. I highly recommend it as a history lesson :-( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxNQxu7PWKM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxNQxu7PWKM ... Columbus sailed for India Found Salvador instead He shook hands with some Indians and soon they all were dead They got TB and typhoid and athlete's foot Diphtheria and the flu Excuse me great nations coming through! Hide your wives and daughters Hide your sons as well With the great nations of Europe you never can tell From where you and I are standing At the end of a century Europes have sprung up everywhere as even I can see But there on the horizon as a possibility Some bug from out of Africa might come for you and me Destroying everything in its path From sea to shining sea Like the great nations of Europe In the sixteenth century