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I think you're missing the bigger picture here. > First, these are not private companies This is irrelevant to this discussion. Whether they're private compan

by imiric 2y ago

I think you're missing the bigger picture here. > First, these are not private companies This is irrelevant to this discussion. Whether they're private companies or heavily supported by the state, the effect of their operations remains the same. The symbiosis I mention is merely in relation to what it would take to dig the US out of this mess. To the extent that a corporatocracy exists only makes fixing things more difficult, but this is not the main problem. > There are still patriots that embody the same values as the founding fathers. How will patriotism help if both sides of the political spectrum believe they're the "true" patriots and that the other side are traitors who seek to destroy their way of life? > America exists in the hearts and values of its 'true' citizens. Riiiight. Who decides who the "true" citizens are? > America does have hope so long as its people retain their values, which are based most heavily in objective rationalism. We can't even agree on an objective truth, let alone rationalism. Objectivity and rationalism take a back seat in times of war. When the other side wants to destroy you, you fight for survival using any means necessary. In the case of America, this division has always existed. It's only been exacerbated by the platforms built by Big Tech, but it wasn't orchestrated by them. They have no control over the information spread on their platforms, and their only interest is extracting as much value as possible from their users. The only way this has any chance of improving is by first stopping the disinformation campaigns from polluting the minds of citizens, and then working on "healing the divide" through clear and honest dialogue, and whatever psyops necessary to reverse the damage. This would take many years and several generations, just as it did to cause it. > The future is far from certain. Claiming its doomed is either that of an adversary, or a demoralized individual in great need of help and support. My claim is that the US as we know it today is doomed. I certainly can't predict the future, but I don't see how the problems we're seeing today can be resolved, given the US is not even capable of accepting that this might be a source of the problem, let alone willing to take actions to mitigate it. So this can only continue to get worse, especially now with Musk and Trump at the helm. How exactly this will play out is anyone's guess. My bet is on an all out civil war, with the country splitting in two. This is precisely what your enemies want, so it would be naive to think that these aren't the effects of an orchestrated attack. My only hope is that this doesn't result in a global conflict, but it's clear that your enemies would want to take advantage of this situation. But hey, if thinking that values, rationalism and patriotism will get you out of this mess, I hope you're right. Good luck in any case.

trod1234 2y ago
> This is irrelevant to this discussion. It is relevant because it shows not just a symbiosis, but a mixing of the two groups where they are effectively the same group. Its important context. > How will patriotism help if both sides of the political spectrum believe they're the "true" patriots and that the other side are traitors who seek to destroy their way of life. Belief alone is worthless, you can believe something is true and in the face of objective truth know it is not. The thing that matters is whether reality shows its true or not. The requires objective measure, something ideology alone does not have but rationalism does. > Riiight. Who decides who the "true" citizens are? Unlike communism, and socialism, there is no decision from a central authority who the true citizens are. It comes down to objective reality and whether your actions show conformance to the founding father's principles. These are Faith, Freedom, Self-sufficiency, Independence, and no taxation without legitimate representation, which applies equally to the monetary matters as it does to personal cost and coercion. > We can't even agree on an objective truth, let alone rationalism. Rational people can agree on objective truth because the truth is the truth, its based in objective measure, and regardless of what someone says it doesn't change the fact that X happened, there are people who can delude themselves certainly, but these people aren't true citizens, they've become no better than parasites. There are a large number of people who seem silent only because the loudspeakers of social media and big tech have drowned out these people. They are still talking, but you, and many others have ignored them and blinded yourselves. That's a problem. You are mistaken, the division today has not always existed, it was fostered through indoctrination, and other subtle manipulations over many generations following destructive false ideology. Important education was withheld, and the masses today are diminished. Philosophy and Critical Thinking used to be taught in what would normally be at the start of 4th grade. > The only way this has any chance of improving is by first stopping the disinformation campaigns from polluting the minds of citizens, and then working on "healing the divide". That is a rigid pipe-dream where it will never come to pass its a pigeonhole for an impossible to solve problem. Luckily it doesn't need to be solved. The defects of such systems are failures where the weight and dynamics of those systems destroy the system itself. After the self-perpetuating dynamics of destruction have destroyed such systems, improvement will naturally occur, for those that survive. > My claim is that the US as we know it today is doomed. I disagree, because the important part is still present, just not in control. All this important part needs to do is get out of the way, and then build back better after those that held everyone else down take their boots off everyone's neck. > How exactly this will play out is anyone's guess. It will be the same as any major empire's fall. You can look to the history of Rome for an accurate picture, keeping in mind that unlike Rome the currency will ultimately fail by 2030-2032 at the same time, where independent producers will no longer be capable of making a profit and shut down, collapsing to non-market socialism and perpetual shortage, undermining all state efforts. There will be communities based in those founding values that thrive in such grim times, because they are not dependent, they produce, and such communities will necessarily defend themselves and their sovereignty absent a rule of law (with is what we have today), in the only way possible. The irony is, our external enemies don't need to lift a finger because they've infected the bureaucracy as any destructive parasite does, but the ideology they use blinds them and causes them to naturally neglect through the same willful blindness the dependency they have on us for economic calculation price data. A socialist calculation problem manifesting globally, chaotically by its very nature, will inevitably make productive organization impossible in all un-sheltered communities. It destroys everything, and that is the insanity of this adversarial plan in which these enemies have engaged in over such a long period of time. Only an insane person will bring everything to the brink, and then unknowingly step over willingly having done so. Rationalism provides the toolset to accurately predict the objective mechanics of reality, and by doing so predict the future, and nudge towards positive beneficial outcomes. If one can't recognize reality, these people can't be anything more than a slave or prisoner (a Suki), without honor or worth.

by imiric 2y ago

trod1234 2y ago

> This is irrelevant to this discussion. It is relevant because it shows not just a symbiosis, but a mixing of the two groups where they are effectively the same group. Its important context. > How will patriotism help if both sides of the political spectrum believe they're the "true" patriots and that the other side are traitors who seek to destroy their way of life. Belief alone is worthless, you can believe something is true and in the face of objective truth know it is not. The thing that matters is whether reality shows its true or not. The requires objective measure, something ideology alone does not have but rationalism does. > Riiight. Who decides who the "true" citizens are? Unlike communism, and socialism, there is no decision from a central authority who the true citizens are. It comes down to objective reality and whether your actions show conformance to the founding father's principles. These are Faith, Freedom, Self-sufficiency, Independence, and no taxation without legitimate representation, which applies equally to the monetary matters as it does to personal cost and coercion. > We can't even agree on an objective truth, let alone rationalism. Rational people can agree on objective truth because the truth is the truth, its based in objective measure, and regardless of what someone says it doesn't change the fact that X happened, there are people who can delude themselves certainly, but these people aren't true citizens, they've become no better than parasites. There are a large number of people who seem silent only because the loudspeakers of social media and big tech have drowned out these people. They are still talking, but you, and many others have ignored them and blinded yourselves. That's a problem. You are mistaken, the division today has not always existed, it was fostered through indoctrination, and other subtle manipulations over many generations following destructive false ideology. Important education was withheld, and the masses today are diminished. Philosophy and Critical Thinking used to be taught in what would normally be at the start of 4th grade. > The only way this has any chance of improving is by first stopping the disinformation campaigns from polluting the minds of citizens, and then working on "healing the divide". That is a rigid pipe-dream where it will never come to pass its a pigeonhole for an impossible to solve problem. Luckily it doesn't need to be solved. The defects of such systems are failures where the weight and dynamics of those systems destroy the system itself. After the self-perpetuating dynamics of destruction have destroyed such systems, improvement will naturally occur, for those that survive. > My claim is that the US as we know it today is doomed. I disagree, because the important part is still present, just not in control. All this important part needs to do is get out of the way, and then build back better after those that held everyone else down take their boots off everyone's neck. > How exactly this will play out is anyone's guess. It will be the same as any major empire's fall. You can look to the history of Rome for an accurate picture, keeping in mind that unlike Rome the currency will ultimately fail by 2030-2032 at the same time, where independent producers will no longer be capable of making a profit and shut down, collapsing to non-market socialism and perpetual shortage, undermining all state efforts. There will be communities based in those founding values that thrive in such grim times, because they are not dependent, they produce, and such communities will necessarily defend themselves and their sovereignty absent a rule of law (with is what we have today), in the only way possible. The irony is, our external enemies don't need to lift a finger because they've infected the bureaucracy as any destructive parasite does, but the ideology they use blinds them and causes them to naturally neglect through the same willful blindness the dependency they have on us for economic calculation price data. A socialist calculation problem manifesting globally, chaotically by its very nature, will inevitably make productive organization impossible in all un-sheltered communities. It destroys everything, and that is the insanity of this adversarial plan in which these enemies have engaged in over such a long period of time. Only an insane person will bring everything to the brink, and then unknowingly step over willingly having done so. Rationalism provides the toolset to accurately predict the objective mechanics of reality, and by doing so predict the future, and nudge towards positive beneficial outcomes. If one can't recognize reality, these people can't be anything more than a slave or prisoner (a Suki), without honor or worth.