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Yet it was exactly this line of thinking that led to, as one example, the Stolen Generations in Australia, and similar atrocities around the world. Maybe they d

Yet it was exactly this line of thinking that led to, as one example, the Stolen Generations in Australia, and similar atrocities around the world. Maybe they don’t need our saving. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations

wruza 2y ago
Oh, that slippery slope again! First you give them tablets, and next day their children were forcibly taken from their families and communities between 1910 and 1970 Excuse me, but this is pretty much different line of thinking from mine. I’m confident that they don’t need children forcibly taken from their families, sure. But tablets are okay.
- crossroadsguy 2y ago
  I assume you mean modern tablets. Shall we pick Android or iOS? Because since we are in the business of civilising why the hell not! And if Android, then can we begin with an e-ink display? :)
  - natebc 2y ago
    Which generation of 802.11 wireless networking do you think they have?
  - wruza 2y ago
    Something sinclair-like, but in modern packaging with modern energy saving and eink and touch kbd. So it can work from sunlight, run for weeks and endure sand. I’d even budget one for myself, to speak the same language, so to say.
- jodrellblank 2y ago
  It was this line of thinking which lead to the One Laptop Per Child failure. See "Why do Western Designs fail in Developing Countries" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGRtyxEpoGg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGRtyxEpoGg OLPC is discussed from ~9 minutes in, but the whole thing is relevant. OLPC started when Seymour Papert and Nicholas Negroponte went to Senegal to teach people to code, and found that there was no good reason to learn to code if you live in rural Senegal and people were not interested. They decided they knew better and doubled down, making the OLPC project, and when presenting their laptop to the world the African delegation at the conference objected to spending money on laptops instead of infrastructure, schools, water. Negroponte decided the target users didn't know better than him what they needed, so he ignored them. "One of the things people told me is, look Nicholas you can't just give a kid a laptop and walk away. Yes you can". he said. And he did. And almost none of the kids did any coding on the laptops. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Laptop_per_Child https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Laptop_per_Child
  - Chris2048 2y ago
    > And he did. And almost none of the kids did any coding on the laptops. This strongly implies one thing lead to the other, but WP isn't as committed to that link, providing a list of alternative explanations for poor adoption. Also, I'm not sure how this constitutes "this line of thinking" comparing a developing nation to an island with no contact.
    - jodrellblank 2y ago
      The way you've phrased your comment seems like you're trying to make a rebuttal to something but I'm not sure how "it didn't fail for ONE reason it failed for MANY reasons" is rebutting anything. You're not sure how the idea of giving computers to African children with the expectation that they will be delighted to code their own computer games is similar to the idea of giving computers to Sentinalese children with the expectation that they will be delighted to code their own computer games? The line of thinking is "they must want for their lack of addiction machines. I want to gift them and they will automagically understand them and enjoy them in the same way I do, despite having none of my upbringing or cultural background or surroundings". No outsider even understands the Sentinelese language[1]. I can't quickly find if they have a writing system at all, or schools, or a concept of formal or informal schooling. They're photographed on the beaches with bows and arrows[2]. They likely have no electricity. The idea that what they need next, what they would thank you for, is a copy of Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing is so ridiculous it shouldn't need pointing out. It's as ridiculous as saying what they need is a powdered wig so they can look fashionable when they next go to the Vienna opera houses, or that they need a timeshare in the Florida Keys for their summer holidays. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentinelese_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentinelese_language [2] https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=sentinelese&iax=images&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=sentinelese&iax=images&ia=i...
      - Chris2048 2y ago
        > "it didn't fail for ONE reason it failed for MANY reasons" is rebutting anything. It could have been none of those reasons, or only some of them. The point is your quoted line mentions one reason for failure to suggest the project/lead was naive, but that may not have been a significant impediment. > You're not sure how the idea of giving computers to African children with the expectation that they will be delighted to code their own computer games is similar to the idea of giving computers to Sentinalese children with the expectation that they will be delighted to code their own computer games? The African delegation would rather spend money on infrastructure, schools, water; is this the same in uncontacted North Sentinel Island? Africa is still developing, NSI is undeveloped, I think that can make a big difference, yes. > I can't quickly find if they have a writing system at all, or schools, or a concept of formal or informal schooling ... They likely have no electricity. Doesn't that support my argument above?.. That NSI is v. different from Africa and hence the OLPC project? > a copy of Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing is so ridiculous it shouldn't need pointing out ok, but you're comparing the "same line of thinking" that seems specifically invalid in this case, but not for the OLPC case that you're comparing it to. It's also a bit of a straw man (in the case of OLPC) - the computers had many modifications made to them to make them require fewer cultural norms, it wasn't at all "Mavis Beacon". I don't see the original proposition "they will automagically understand them and enjoy them in the same way I do". As such they weren't designed or distributed for uncontacted tribes.

wruza 2y ago

Oh, that slippery slope again! First you give them tablets, and next day their children were forcibly taken from their families and communities between 1910 and 1970 Excuse me, but this is pretty much different line of thinking from mine. I’m confident that they don’t need children forcibly taken from their families, sure. But tablets are okay.

crossroadsguy 2y ago
I assume you mean modern tablets. Shall we pick Android or iOS? Because since we are in the business of civilising why the hell not! And if Android, then can we begin with an e-ink display? :)
- natebc 2y ago
  Which generation of 802.11 wireless networking do you think they have?
- wruza 2y ago
  Something sinclair-like, but in modern packaging with modern energy saving and eink and touch kbd. So it can work from sunlight, run for weeks and endure sand. I’d even budget one for myself, to speak the same language, so to say.
jodrellblank 2y ago
It was this line of thinking which lead to the One Laptop Per Child failure. See "Why do Western Designs fail in Developing Countries" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGRtyxEpoGg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGRtyxEpoGg OLPC is discussed from ~9 minutes in, but the whole thing is relevant. OLPC started when Seymour Papert and Nicholas Negroponte went to Senegal to teach people to code, and found that there was no good reason to learn to code if you live in rural Senegal and people were not interested. They decided they knew better and doubled down, making the OLPC project, and when presenting their laptop to the world the African delegation at the conference objected to spending money on laptops instead of infrastructure, schools, water. Negroponte decided the target users didn't know better than him what they needed, so he ignored them. "One of the things people told me is, look Nicholas you can't just give a kid a laptop and walk away. Yes you can". he said. And he did. And almost none of the kids did any coding on the laptops. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Laptop_per_Child https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Laptop_per_Child
- Chris2048 2y ago
  > And he did. And almost none of the kids did any coding on the laptops. This strongly implies one thing lead to the other, but WP isn't as committed to that link, providing a list of alternative explanations for poor adoption. Also, I'm not sure how this constitutes "this line of thinking" comparing a developing nation to an island with no contact.
  - jodrellblank 2y ago
    The way you've phrased your comment seems like you're trying to make a rebuttal to something but I'm not sure how "it didn't fail for ONE reason it failed for MANY reasons" is rebutting anything. You're not sure how the idea of giving computers to African children with the expectation that they will be delighted to code their own computer games is similar to the idea of giving computers to Sentinalese children with the expectation that they will be delighted to code their own computer games? The line of thinking is "they must want for their lack of addiction machines. I want to gift them and they will automagically understand them and enjoy them in the same way I do, despite having none of my upbringing or cultural background or surroundings". No outsider even understands the Sentinelese language[1]. I can't quickly find if they have a writing system at all, or schools, or a concept of formal or informal schooling. They're photographed on the beaches with bows and arrows[2]. They likely have no electricity. The idea that what they need next, what they would thank you for, is a copy of Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing is so ridiculous it shouldn't need pointing out. It's as ridiculous as saying what they need is a powdered wig so they can look fashionable when they next go to the Vienna opera houses, or that they need a timeshare in the Florida Keys for their summer holidays. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentinelese_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentinelese_language [2] https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=sentinelese&iax=images&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=sentinelese&iax=images&ia=i...
    - Chris2048 2y ago
      > "it didn't fail for ONE reason it failed for MANY reasons" is rebutting anything. It could have been none of those reasons, or only some of them. The point is your quoted line mentions one reason for failure to suggest the project/lead was naive, but that may not have been a significant impediment. > You're not sure how the idea of giving computers to African children with the expectation that they will be delighted to code their own computer games is similar to the idea of giving computers to Sentinalese children with the expectation that they will be delighted to code their own computer games? The African delegation would rather spend money on infrastructure, schools, water; is this the same in uncontacted North Sentinel Island? Africa is still developing, NSI is undeveloped, I think that can make a big difference, yes. > I can't quickly find if they have a writing system at all, or schools, or a concept of formal or informal schooling ... They likely have no electricity. Doesn't that support my argument above?.. That NSI is v. different from Africa and hence the OLPC project? > a copy of Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing is so ridiculous it shouldn't need pointing out ok, but you're comparing the "same line of thinking" that seems specifically invalid in this case, but not for the OLPC case that you're comparing it to. It's also a bit of a straw man (in the case of OLPC) - the computers had many modifications made to them to make them require fewer cultural norms, it wasn't at all "Mavis Beacon". I don't see the original proposition "they will automagically understand them and enjoy them in the same way I do". As such they weren't designed or distributed for uncontacted tribes.