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Right, being senior and above basically means doing less engineering. I hope that's something we can agree on because otherwise we would need to discuss the sem

by proc0 2y ago

Right, being senior and above basically means doing less engineering. I hope that's something we can agree on because otherwise we would need to discuss the semantics. > All of the things I listed I could do - project management, backend developer or a cloud engineer - I would say I’m only slightly better than average if that I completely acknowledge this is a valid way to run a business, but the context here is how this sort of career progression is preventing the specialization of engineers in their domain and contributing to the widespread of software problems. Instead of investing in good engineers that specialize in their domain, companies move them away from engineering into more of an entrepreneur mindset by tasking them with adding value to the business directly, which is not something that you do as an engineer (it's nowhere in a CS degree, aside from say some electives). A good metaphor here is a football/soccer team. What companies are doing is telling the goal keeper that he needs to score goals because more goals means winning. The team wants to win so everyone on the field has to score a goal. That obviously doesn't make sense even though the premise is true. You want a team composed of specialists and the more they specialize in their domain and work together the more you win. Even though there are only two or three offensive players that are scoring the goals, everyone is contributing to the success of the team if they specialize in their domain. Similarly, just because talking to clients and selling the product is directly contributing to the revenue of a business it doesn't mean that engineering at a higher level has no value. And once again to stress the context here, companies can do whatever they want, but having engineers progress through their careers by moving AWAY from engineering is precisely why there is so much bad software out there. Letting engineers create better software should result in more profit in the long term, just probably not in the short term, and it's also hard for non-technical people to manage. So it is what it is.

scarface_74 2y ago
Right, being senior and above basically means doing less engineering. I hope that's something we can agree on because otherwise we would need to discuss the semantics Engineering is not only the physical labor. Aircraft engineers and building engineers don’t spend most of their time doing hands on work. https://www.careerexplorer.com/careers/engineer/ https://www.careerexplorer.com/careers/engineer/ Designing and Planning: Engineers are responsible for designing and planning systems, structures, processes, or technologies. They analyze requirements, gather data, and create detailed plans and specifications to meet project objectives. This involves considering factors such as functionality, safety, efficiency, and cost-effectiveness. When doing construction work, who adds more value? The general contractor? (Staff software engineer), The owners of the plumbing, electrical, and HVAC companies assuming they have the actual skills (senior level developers). The owners of the plumbing companies could very well be making more than the general contractors. This is where you can specialize and the sky is the limit. The actual certified workers (mid level developers). This is the level that the completely head down people are. No matter how good they become at being a hands on plumber , there is a hard ceiling they are going to hit at this level. The apprentices (juniors)? I work in consulting. I am currently a staff architect (true - IC5) over a hypothetical project (not a real project). I know the project is going to need a cloud architect, a data architect , and a software architect. They are all specialists at their jobs and are all going to lead their “work streams”. They are all IC4s I expect each architect to take the high level business objectives and work with the relevant technical people on both sides and lead their work along with some hands on keyboard work. They will each have people under them that are not customer facing at all. While I know all of the domains at some level, I’m going to defer to their technical judgement as long as it meets the business objectives. I did my high level designs before they came on to the project. Was my design work, figuring out priorities, risks, making sure it met the clients needs, discussing trade offs, etc not “engineering”? Each level down from myself IC5 to junior engineers (IC1) is dealing with less scope, impact and ambiguity. There is no reason that the architects shouldn’t get paid as much as I do. They bring to the table technical expertise and depth. I bring to the table delivery experience, being able to disambiguate, and breadth.
- proc0 2y ago
  > Do you think “engineering” is only the physical labor? Do aircraft engineers and building engineers actually do the construction work? No, but software is inherently different because you can leverage existing software to create more software. Every airplane has to be created individually, but software that already exists can be extended or reused by just calling functions or in the worst case copy/pasting. > The actual certified workers (mid level developers). This is the level that the completely head down people are. No matter how good they become at being a hands on plumber , there is a hard ceiling they are going to hit at this level. Yes, with hardware this can be the case as there is a small number of ways to build something. With software there is no ceiling, and the proof here is AI. We might soon see general intelligence that just codes anything you want. This means software can be designed to automate virtually anything in anyway shape or form, but it requires more and more expertise. > I did my high level designs before they came on to the project. Was my design work, figuring out priorities, risks, making sure it met the clients needs, discussing trade offs, etc not “engineering”? I agree what you're outlining is how the industry works. Perhaps the core of the issue here is how software engineering was modeled after other kinds of engineering with physical limitations. Software is closer to mathematics (arguably it's just mathematics). You can of course still design and plan and delegate, but once the role starts dealing with the high level planning, scheduling, managing, etc., there is less of a requirement for the technical details. I've worked with architects that didn't know the specifics of a language or design patterns, not because they're bad at engineering but because they had no more time to spend on those details. These details are crucial for good software that is reliable, robust, extensible, etc. Junior and even mid level engineers also don't know these details. Only someone that has been hands on for a long time within a domain can hone these skills, but I have seen so many good engineers become senior or tech leads and then forget these details only to then create software that needs constant fixing and eventually rewriting. I'm a senior myself and have no choice but to engage in these activities of planning, scheduling, etc., when I can clearly see they do not require technical expertise. You just need some basic general knowledge, and they just are time consuming. My time would be better spent writing advanced code that mid-level and junior level can then expand on (which has happened before with pretty good success, accelerating development and eliminating huge categories of bugs). Instead I have to resort to mediocre solutions that can be delegated. As a result I can see all kinds of problems accumulating with the codebase. It's also really hard to convince the leadership to invest in "high level" engineering because they think that you create more impact by managing an army of low to mid-level engineers instead of leveraging properly written software. I'm convinced that it does add value in the long term, it's just a hard sell. Ultimately I guess it comes down to the type of org and the business needs, which often does not include writing software that will not break. Most companies can afford to write bad software if it means they get to scale by adding more people.

by proc0 2y ago

scarface_74 2y ago

Right, being senior and above basically means doing less engineering. I hope that's something we can agree on because otherwise we would need to discuss the semantics Engineering is not only the physical labor. Aircraft engineers and building engineers don’t spend most of their time doing hands on work. https://www.careerexplorer.com/careers/engineer/ https://www.careerexplorer.com/careers/engineer/ Designing and Planning: Engineers are responsible for designing and planning systems, structures, processes, or technologies. They analyze requirements, gather data, and create detailed plans and specifications to meet project objectives. This involves considering factors such as functionality, safety, efficiency, and cost-effectiveness. When doing construction work, who adds more value? The general contractor? (Staff software engineer), The owners of the plumbing, electrical, and HVAC companies assuming they have the actual skills (senior level developers). The owners of the plumbing companies could very well be making more than the general contractors. This is where you can specialize and the sky is the limit. The actual certified workers (mid level developers). This is the level that the completely head down people are. No matter how good they become at being a hands on plumber , there is a hard ceiling they are going to hit at this level. The apprentices (juniors)? I work in consulting. I am currently a staff architect (true - IC5) over a hypothetical project (not a real project). I know the project is going to need a cloud architect, a data architect , and a software architect. They are all specialists at their jobs and are all going to lead their “work streams”. They are all IC4s I expect each architect to take the high level business objectives and work with the relevant technical people on both sides and lead their work along with some hands on keyboard work. They will each have people under them that are not customer facing at all. While I know all of the domains at some level, I’m going to defer to their technical judgement as long as it meets the business objectives. I did my high level designs before they came on to the project. Was my design work, figuring out priorities, risks, making sure it met the clients needs, discussing trade offs, etc not “engineering”? Each level down from myself IC5 to junior engineers (IC1) is dealing with less scope, impact and ambiguity. There is no reason that the architects shouldn’t get paid as much as I do. They bring to the table technical expertise and depth. I bring to the table delivery experience, being able to disambiguate, and breadth.

proc0 2y ago
> Do you think “engineering” is only the physical labor? Do aircraft engineers and building engineers actually do the construction work? No, but software is inherently different because you can leverage existing software to create more software. Every airplane has to be created individually, but software that already exists can be extended or reused by just calling functions or in the worst case copy/pasting. > The actual certified workers (mid level developers). This is the level that the completely head down people are. No matter how good they become at being a hands on plumber , there is a hard ceiling they are going to hit at this level. Yes, with hardware this can be the case as there is a small number of ways to build something. With software there is no ceiling, and the proof here is AI. We might soon see general intelligence that just codes anything you want. This means software can be designed to automate virtually anything in anyway shape or form, but it requires more and more expertise. > I did my high level designs before they came on to the project. Was my design work, figuring out priorities, risks, making sure it met the clients needs, discussing trade offs, etc not “engineering”? I agree what you're outlining is how the industry works. Perhaps the core of the issue here is how software engineering was modeled after other kinds of engineering with physical limitations. Software is closer to mathematics (arguably it's just mathematics). You can of course still design and plan and delegate, but once the role starts dealing with the high level planning, scheduling, managing, etc., there is less of a requirement for the technical details. I've worked with architects that didn't know the specifics of a language or design patterns, not because they're bad at engineering but because they had no more time to spend on those details. These details are crucial for good software that is reliable, robust, extensible, etc. Junior and even mid level engineers also don't know these details. Only someone that has been hands on for a long time within a domain can hone these skills, but I have seen so many good engineers become senior or tech leads and then forget these details only to then create software that needs constant fixing and eventually rewriting. I'm a senior myself and have no choice but to engage in these activities of planning, scheduling, etc., when I can clearly see they do not require technical expertise. You just need some basic general knowledge, and they just are time consuming. My time would be better spent writing advanced code that mid-level and junior level can then expand on (which has happened before with pretty good success, accelerating development and eliminating huge categories of bugs). Instead I have to resort to mediocre solutions that can be delegated. As a result I can see all kinds of problems accumulating with the codebase. It's also really hard to convince the leadership to invest in "high level" engineering because they think that you create more impact by managing an army of low to mid-level engineers instead of leveraging properly written software. I'm convinced that it does add value in the long term, it's just a hard sell. Ultimately I guess it comes down to the type of org and the business needs, which often does not include writing software that will not break. Most companies can afford to write bad software if it means they get to scale by adding more people.