4 ms·

Big battery packs are insane to put inside a house. I'm biased because I work for a utility scale storage company, but really, 2nd law of thermodynamics, people

Big battery packs are insane to put inside a house. I'm biased because I work for a utility scale storage company, but really, 2nd law of thermodynamics, people. The more potential energy you pack into a volume, the higher the chance the energy will be released at a time not of your choosing and in a fashion that will make you sad. We put our product in industrial zoned places where the worst case scenario for a fire is pre-planned to not be catastrophic and so that no homes will be lost. Why put your house at risk? So you can cosplay as Henry David Thoreau and take some stance against your power utility?

lazide 2y ago
Keep in mind, in the US most people park ICE vehicles (sometimes 2-3 at a time) in garages attached or part of their dwellings all the time. And those not only catch fire more regularly, but contain far more energy. Aka people do dumb stuff all the time. And mostly survive. Frankly, this isn’t likely to even be top ten from an actuarial basis.
- brookst 2y ago
  This is the first time I’ve seen a claim that ICE vehicles are more likely to have catastrophic fires while parked than EVs. Is that true? Any source?
  - ocschwar 2y ago
    If I did put batteries in my house, I'd want them mounted on wheels so if they overheat I can push them out before things get exciting. Those do exist, and apart from storing juice for your house they can also take you places...
    - lazide 2y ago
      There is no way you could get close enough to a battery bank this size to push them once they started to catch on fire and not die. You might as well be trying to put out a kiddy pool of gasoline with your hands.
  - lazide 2y ago
    [https://alliedworldinsurance.com/risk-management/electric-vehicle-fires-a-cause-for-concern/ https://alliedworldinsurance.com/risk-management/electric-ve...] Far more often. Battery fires can be much harder to put out, but gasoline fires are no slouch frankly.
    - brookst 2y ago
      Thanks for the great link! Unfortunately it doesn’t speak specifically to parked/charging, which is when I would expect EV’s to be at the greatest risk and ICE’s to be at their lowest risk. But still, seems pretty clear that EV’a are likely no more risky and possibly considerably less so in the garage. Thanks!
      - lazide 2y ago
        ICE vehicles are at risk when starting and stopping, and those happen in garages a lot.
  - KennyBlanken 2y ago
    https://www.google.com/search?q=recall+%22park+outside%22 https://www.google.com/search?q=recall+%22park+outside%22 These recalls from Ford, GM, and Kia are each millions of vehicles. And the number of these recalls is going up: https://turnto10.com/i-team/consumer-advocate/serious-park-outside-vehicle-recalls-nearly-doubled-carfax-warning-fire-safety-manufacturers-guidance-highway-traffic-cars-march-22-2024 https://turnto10.com/i-team/consumer-advocate/serious-park-o... It's always been a significant risk; why do you think there are strict building code regs for the garage area of a home?
KennyBlanken 2y ago
> I work for a utility scale storage company Clearly not in any sort of engineering capacity given you wildly misused the second law of thermodynamics, which has nothing to do with potential energy, but the flow of heat from hot areas to cooler areas. Second: energy density has nothing to do with how stable that energy is. 12lb of plutonium could level a city, but not if it isn't in an extremely precisely engineered device. Third:potential energy and volume, you say? Do you own a riding lawnmower in your garage? Those have about 2 or more gallons of gas, which is about 66 kWhr of energy. Pour that out onto your garage floor, strike a match, and let me know how "sad" you are when your garage is leveled, your house structurally damaged, and you're dead in your neighbor's yard. Do you have a gas grill, and do you keep a spare tank in the garage? 20lb of propane is equal to almost 130kWhr of energy. Do you keep a 5 gallon jug of spare gas in your garage? 165 kWhr. So. You were saying?
- ocschwar 2y ago
  > Do you keep a 5 gallon jug of spare gas in your garage? 165 kWhr If you keep a 5 gallon jug in the garage, your risk is higher than if you don't. If you keep a lawnmower in your garage, your risk is higher than if you don't. Like I said: the higher the amount of potential energy, the greater the risk of it being released in a way that will make you sad. It's a straightforward derivation from thermo.

lazide 2y ago

Keep in mind, in the US most people park ICE vehicles (sometimes 2-3 at a time) in garages attached or part of their dwellings all the time. And those not only catch fire more regularly, but contain far more energy. Aka people do dumb stuff all the time. And mostly survive. Frankly, this isn’t likely to even be top ten from an actuarial basis.

brookst 2y ago
This is the first time I’ve seen a claim that ICE vehicles are more likely to have catastrophic fires while parked than EVs. Is that true? Any source?
- ocschwar 2y ago
  If I did put batteries in my house, I'd want them mounted on wheels so if they overheat I can push them out before things get exciting. Those do exist, and apart from storing juice for your house they can also take you places...
  - lazide 2y ago
    There is no way you could get close enough to a battery bank this size to push them once they started to catch on fire and not die. You might as well be trying to put out a kiddy pool of gasoline with your hands.
- lazide 2y ago
  [https://alliedworldinsurance.com/risk-management/electric-vehicle-fires-a-cause-for-concern/ https://alliedworldinsurance.com/risk-management/electric-ve...] Far more often. Battery fires can be much harder to put out, but gasoline fires are no slouch frankly.
  - brookst 2y ago
    Thanks for the great link! Unfortunately it doesn’t speak specifically to parked/charging, which is when I would expect EV’s to be at the greatest risk and ICE’s to be at their lowest risk. But still, seems pretty clear that EV’a are likely no more risky and possibly considerably less so in the garage. Thanks!
    - lazide 2y ago
      ICE vehicles are at risk when starting and stopping, and those happen in garages a lot.
- KennyBlanken 2y ago
  https://www.google.com/search?q=recall+%22park+outside%22 https://www.google.com/search?q=recall+%22park+outside%22 These recalls from Ford, GM, and Kia are each millions of vehicles. And the number of these recalls is going up: https://turnto10.com/i-team/consumer-advocate/serious-park-outside-vehicle-recalls-nearly-doubled-carfax-warning-fire-safety-manufacturers-guidance-highway-traffic-cars-march-22-2024 https://turnto10.com/i-team/consumer-advocate/serious-park-o... It's always been a significant risk; why do you think there are strict building code regs for the garage area of a home?

KennyBlanken 2y ago

> I work for a utility scale storage company Clearly not in any sort of engineering capacity given you wildly misused the second law of thermodynamics, which has nothing to do with potential energy, but the flow of heat from hot areas to cooler areas. Second: energy density has nothing to do with how stable that energy is. 12lb of plutonium could level a city, but not if it isn't in an extremely precisely engineered device. Third:potential energy and volume, you say? Do you own a riding lawnmower in your garage? Those have about 2 or more gallons of gas, which is about 66 kWhr of energy. Pour that out onto your garage floor, strike a match, and let me know how "sad" you are when your garage is leveled, your house structurally damaged, and you're dead in your neighbor's yard. Do you have a gas grill, and do you keep a spare tank in the garage? 20lb of propane is equal to almost 130kWhr of energy. Do you keep a 5 gallon jug of spare gas in your garage? 165 kWhr. So. You were saying?

ocschwar 2y ago
> Do you keep a 5 gallon jug of spare gas in your garage? 165 kWhr If you keep a 5 gallon jug in the garage, your risk is higher than if you don't. If you keep a lawnmower in your garage, your risk is higher than if you don't. Like I said: the higher the amount of potential energy, the greater the risk of it being released in a way that will make you sad. It's a straightforward derivation from thermo.