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And this might be the big issue with solar power and also EV's. If enough people switch to solar and are no longer paying into the grid at a certain point it wi

by 14 2y ago

And this might be the big issue with solar power and also EV's. If enough people switch to solar and are no longer paying into the grid at a certain point it will become unprofitable to maintain a large grid. The same is true at this point for EV's. Buying gas we pay road tax. So not buying gas is going to reduce that tax collected. At a certain point they will need to change the way that tax is collected. Probably some sort of tax on the distance an EV drives or perhaps some other method.

fjjjrjj 2y ago
Already happening. I paid an EV fee on my car tabs this week.
loeg 2y ago
(For some context: gas taxes are already a subset of road expense. Significant road funding comes from other revenue sources that EV drivers also pay.)
- 14 2y ago
  Curious if you could provide more information about the other sources EV drivers pay? Is it at point of sale or where do they pay this? I am sure it is different depending on the region but I was always under the belief that road tax payed on gas where I am is the most significant contributor to road funding. Thank you I would enjoy learning more about what other revenue sources EV's contribute to.
  - supertrope 2y ago
    Not the parent commenter but https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/state-infrastructure-spending/ https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/state-infrastructur...
    - loeg 2y ago
      I can't tell if these figures are inclusive of interstates and all local roads, or some subset, but my impression is these numbers (for use tax pay %) look too high. The right ballpark is around 50%.
  - loeg 2y ago
    State general funds -- any sales, property, or income tax of your state -- as well as Federal highway dollars (Federal income tax). Notably, non-drivers also pay into these funds.
crummy 2y ago
In NZ, EVs pay road user charges.
- walthamstow 2y ago
  How is it measured? All the talk over here (UK) has frothy people talking about government tracking your every movement with a box in your car or automatic number plate recognition (the latter we already do anyway)
gibolt 2y ago
Even worse, many states are more than double charging EVs for the comparable average mileage that determines gas tax.
iforgotpassword 2y ago
I never really got these arguments. It doesn't have to be that way, does it? I already pay a monthly base fee for electricity and then per kwh on top of that. So I consider the base fee as what is being used to maintain the grid. It's not like my actual consumption influences the wear of the grid in a meaningful way That argument would actually make more sense for roads so I see how you'd want to tax gas instead of car ownership, but even there I think it could still be acceptable to spread it out like that.
- 14 2y ago
  Sure if you pay a base fee maybe but if you went 100% solar to cover all your needs and completely disconnected from the grid so you were not a paying customer then what? How many houses have to leave the grid switching to solar before the grid is no longer viable? At some point in time we will reach a tipping point. If half of all households left the grid to solar could the other half support the upkeep of the entire grid? My guess is no. So at some point we will need to subsidize the grid for those still on it or force them to switch to solar. It will be hard. Solar is not cheap upfront even though overall it is cheaper. As for the EV's I hear it is already happening in some places you are being charged for how much you drive however they do that.
  - iforgotpassword 2y ago
    I see this far in the future, and a slow process. I already know a few people with big enough solar setups to be self sustaining even in winter with big battery packs, but they still connect to the grid "just in case", which honestly I'd do too. As more people disconnect then sure the base price might go up but why not, the other ones don't need the grid, so why pay? And as for public infra like street lights, that will just get heavier on taxes. This is something I see happening over decades rather than years, so there will be enough time to figure this out.
    - ocschwar 2y ago
      Big battery packs are insane to put inside a house. I'm biased because I work for a utility scale storage company, but really, 2nd law of thermodynamics, people. The more potential energy you pack into a volume, the higher the chance the energy will be released at a time not of your choosing and in a fashion that will make you sad. We put our product in industrial zoned places where the worst case scenario for a fire is pre-planned to not be catastrophic and so that no homes will be lost. Why put your house at risk? So you can cosplay as Henry David Thoreau and take some stance against your power utility?
unmole 2y ago
It's already happening in Pakistan: https://www.ft.com/content/69e4cb33-3615-4424-996d-5aee9d1afe19 https://www.ft.com/content/69e4cb33-3615-4424-996d-5aee9d1af...
rich_sasha 2y ago
Consumer electricity is also taxed, although it's not explicitly linked to roads. But then that's not really how governments work anyway, all the money goes into a ~black hole~ big pot and is spent around. Roads are notionally supported from general taxes in the UK anyway, not fuel duty.
dzhiurgis 2y ago
> no longer paying into the grid at a certain point it will become unprofitable to maintain a large grid. 1. IDK where you live, but most people pay quite a bit for grid itself, often more than for actual power. 2. With batteries the grid can be about 10x smaller.
mbreese 2y ago
In my state, I pay a special tax on my EV when I renew my license plates. It is based on fuel source. The point is to offset the lack of gas taxes I would be paying. Or it might just be a disincentive to buy an EV, it’s hard to tell sometimes.
- brookst 2y ago
  At some point we’ll switch to mileage taxes, which make more sense for infrastructure upkeep. Gas taxes were only ever a rough proxy for “how much do hou use roads and bridges.”
  - pfannkuchen 2y ago
    How do you track how far everyone drives to tax them correctly?
    - AlgorithmicTime 2y ago
      [dead]
    - KeplerBoy 2y ago
      The same way we track how much electricity households use from the grid. By using a (smart) meter.
    - brookst 2y ago
      There are a bunch of technical solutions, from certified shops you stop by once a year to networked cars. Implementation is the easiest part of this change.
    - xeromal 2y ago
      Many cars are already "smogged". Would be trivial to record their mileage year to year at the same time. Require a "smog" for EVs and record their mileage and maybe scan their BMS for any faults.
    - toast0 2y ago
      Require a mileage readout when renewing registration, and when sold.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
devwastaken 2y ago
oil and gas subsidies repay it back. the true cost of gas is 2-3x current price.
filoleg 2y ago
> The same is true at this point for EV's. Buying gas we pay road tax. So not buying gas is going to reduce that tax collected. At a certain point they will need to change the way that tax is collected. WA state had a “genius” workaround for it. I remember being shocked the first time I got my annual car registration slip for my (then) new EV. It was a flat $150 fee + $75 “transportation electrification” fee, on top of all the normal annual registration fees. For more expensive cars like Teslas, proportionally it is not that ridiculous (it “only” raises the fees by about 30-40%). But for something more affordable like Nissan Leaf, it essentially doubles the registration fees (aka increases by almost 100%). Luckily, they seem to be experimenting with it still. Just saw that starting this upcoming July, they are rolling out a voluntary program where those fees above get waived, if you opt-in and pay 2.5 cents per mile. No idea how they would track it (on a technical level; e.g., using what device? how the data is processed? does it count only in-state miles or just in general?), and that’s the part that I am honestly worried about the most. But that seems at least like an interesting try.

by 14 2y ago

fjjjrjj 2y ago

Already happening. I paid an EV fee on my car tabs this week.

loeg 2y ago

(For some context: gas taxes are already a subset of road expense. Significant road funding comes from other revenue sources that EV drivers also pay.)

14 2y ago
Curious if you could provide more information about the other sources EV drivers pay? Is it at point of sale or where do they pay this? I am sure it is different depending on the region but I was always under the belief that road tax payed on gas where I am is the most significant contributor to road funding. Thank you I would enjoy learning more about what other revenue sources EV's contribute to.
- supertrope 2y ago
  Not the parent commenter but https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/state-infrastructure-spending/ https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/state-infrastructur...
  - loeg 2y ago
    I can't tell if these figures are inclusive of interstates and all local roads, or some subset, but my impression is these numbers (for use tax pay %) look too high. The right ballpark is around 50%.
- loeg 2y ago
  State general funds -- any sales, property, or income tax of your state -- as well as Federal highway dollars (Federal income tax). Notably, non-drivers also pay into these funds.

crummy 2y ago

In NZ, EVs pay road user charges.

walthamstow 2y ago
How is it measured? All the talk over here (UK) has frothy people talking about government tracking your every movement with a box in your car or automatic number plate recognition (the latter we already do anyway)

gibolt 2y ago

Even worse, many states are more than double charging EVs for the comparable average mileage that determines gas tax.

iforgotpassword 2y ago

I never really got these arguments. It doesn't have to be that way, does it? I already pay a monthly base fee for electricity and then per kwh on top of that. So I consider the base fee as what is being used to maintain the grid. It's not like my actual consumption influences the wear of the grid in a meaningful way That argument would actually make more sense for roads so I see how you'd want to tax gas instead of car ownership, but even there I think it could still be acceptable to spread it out like that.

14 2y ago
Sure if you pay a base fee maybe but if you went 100% solar to cover all your needs and completely disconnected from the grid so you were not a paying customer then what? How many houses have to leave the grid switching to solar before the grid is no longer viable? At some point in time we will reach a tipping point. If half of all households left the grid to solar could the other half support the upkeep of the entire grid? My guess is no. So at some point we will need to subsidize the grid for those still on it or force them to switch to solar. It will be hard. Solar is not cheap upfront even though overall it is cheaper. As for the EV's I hear it is already happening in some places you are being charged for how much you drive however they do that.
- iforgotpassword 2y ago
  I see this far in the future, and a slow process. I already know a few people with big enough solar setups to be self sustaining even in winter with big battery packs, but they still connect to the grid "just in case", which honestly I'd do too. As more people disconnect then sure the base price might go up but why not, the other ones don't need the grid, so why pay? And as for public infra like street lights, that will just get heavier on taxes. This is something I see happening over decades rather than years, so there will be enough time to figure this out.
  - ocschwar 2y ago
    Big battery packs are insane to put inside a house. I'm biased because I work for a utility scale storage company, but really, 2nd law of thermodynamics, people. The more potential energy you pack into a volume, the higher the chance the energy will be released at a time not of your choosing and in a fashion that will make you sad. We put our product in industrial zoned places where the worst case scenario for a fire is pre-planned to not be catastrophic and so that no homes will be lost. Why put your house at risk? So you can cosplay as Henry David Thoreau and take some stance against your power utility?

unmole 2y ago

It's already happening in Pakistan: https://www.ft.com/content/69e4cb33-3615-4424-996d-5aee9d1afe19 https://www.ft.com/content/69e4cb33-3615-4424-996d-5aee9d1af...

rich_sasha 2y ago

Consumer electricity is also taxed, although it's not explicitly linked to roads. But then that's not really how governments work anyway, all the money goes into a ~black hole~ big pot and is spent around. Roads are notionally supported from general taxes in the UK anyway, not fuel duty.

dzhiurgis 2y ago

> no longer paying into the grid at a certain point it will become unprofitable to maintain a large grid. 1. IDK where you live, but most people pay quite a bit for grid itself, often more than for actual power. 2. With batteries the grid can be about 10x smaller.

mbreese 2y ago

In my state, I pay a special tax on my EV when I renew my license plates. It is based on fuel source. The point is to offset the lack of gas taxes I would be paying. Or it might just be a disincentive to buy an EV, it’s hard to tell sometimes.

brookst 2y ago
At some point we’ll switch to mileage taxes, which make more sense for infrastructure upkeep. Gas taxes were only ever a rough proxy for “how much do hou use roads and bridges.”
- pfannkuchen 2y ago
  How do you track how far everyone drives to tax them correctly?
  - AlgorithmicTime 2y ago
    [dead]
  - KeplerBoy 2y ago
    The same way we track how much electricity households use from the grid. By using a (smart) meter.
  - brookst 2y ago
    There are a bunch of technical solutions, from certified shops you stop by once a year to networked cars. Implementation is the easiest part of this change.
  - xeromal 2y ago
    Many cars are already "smogged". Would be trivial to record their mileage year to year at the same time. Require a "smog" for EVs and record their mileage and maybe scan their BMS for any faults.
  - toast0 2y ago
    Require a mileage readout when renewing registration, and when sold.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

devwastaken 2y ago

oil and gas subsidies repay it back. the true cost of gas is 2-3x current price.

filoleg 2y ago

> The same is true at this point for EV's. Buying gas we pay road tax. So not buying gas is going to reduce that tax collected. At a certain point they will need to change the way that tax is collected. WA state had a “genius” workaround for it. I remember being shocked the first time I got my annual car registration slip for my (then) new EV. It was a flat $150 fee + $75 “transportation electrification” fee, on top of all the normal annual registration fees. For more expensive cars like Teslas, proportionally it is not that ridiculous (it “only” raises the fees by about 30-40%). But for something more affordable like Nissan Leaf, it essentially doubles the registration fees (aka increases by almost 100%). Luckily, they seem to be experimenting with it still. Just saw that starting this upcoming July, they are rolling out a voluntary program where those fees above get waived, if you opt-in and pay 2.5 cents per mile. No idea how they would track it (on a technical level; e.g., using what device? how the data is processed? does it count only in-state miles or just in general?), and that’s the part that I am honestly worried about the most. But that seems at least like an interesting try.