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this is more or less exactly what i was trying to say. for most people SSRIs are safe, they experience manageable side effects and little health risk. psychedel

this is more or less exactly what i was trying to say. for most people SSRIs are safe, they experience manageable side effects and little health risk. psychedelics and dissociatives seem like they must be really drastic and risky. but actually SSRIs are pretty risky too, there are all these terrible low-probability outcomes. so it's good we have all options, but ideally we'd have a better way of judging who is safest with which treatment.

BjoernKW 2y ago
With SSRIs you have a one in three chance for any number of the following side effects; many of them permanent, even after discontinuing medication (if you actually manage to do so, since SSRI come with severe withdrawal symptoms): - sexual dysfunction - loss of emotion and creativity - drowsiness - insomnia (including real fun stuff like night terrors) - fatigue - nausea - tremors I'd hardly call that safe or manageable. With even the most potent psychedelics such as LSD, on the other hand, there's merely a one in thousand chance for severe side effects. I'd go as far as prohibiting the prescription of SSRIs for all but the most severe cases (such as a severe depression where the patient is actually suicidal). For everything else these drugs are commonly used for, e.g., mild depression, OCD, or IBS, there are other - in many cases better - options with far less devastating (if any) adverse effects.
- Capricorn2481 2y ago
  > many of them permanent Almost none of these would be permanent, and you certainly don't have a 1 in 3 chance of them being permanent. Where did you get that number? > With even the most potent psychedelics such as LSD, on the other hand, there's merely a one in thousand chance for severe side effects. This is fucking nuts. We're in a thread about how taking too much can clearly cause weeks of psychosis, and how easy it is to do that. There's nothing wrong with warning about the risks of SSRIs, but to claim you have a 1 in 3 chance of having permanent nausea while, in the same breath, claiming psychedelics are 100x safer, is beyond irresponsible.
  - BjoernKW 2y ago
    > Almost none of these would be permanent Sexual dysfunction caused by SSRIs in many cases persists for the rest of the patient's life. > and you certainly don't have a 1 in 3 chance of them being permanent. Where did you get that number? Those are actual numbers from scientific studies: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2719451/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2719451/ > in the same breath, claiming psychedelics are 100x safer, is beyond irresponsible. Stating mere facts isn't irresponsible and those are the facts: When taking SSRIs you have a one in three chance to permanently and severely change your life for the worse. When taking LSD you have a 1 in 1,000 chance of suffering a psychotic break. What's irresponsible - and unethical - is twisting and misrepresenting these facts - to the extent of outright lying about the purported innocuousness of SSRI, as is wont in the psychiatric community.
    - Capricorn2481 2y ago
      > Sexual dysfunction caused by SSRIs in many cases persists for the rest of the patient's life You said most symptoms were permanent, don't back down now. Sexual Dysfunction is a pretty broad term, how would you even link it to being affected by an SSRI? > Those are actual numbers from scientific studies: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2719451/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2719451/ Literally says NOTHING about being permanent, this is about symptoms experienced while on SSRIs. Did you read your own source? > When taking LSD you have a 1 in 1,000 chance of suffering a psychotic break Where are you getting this number? It lacks so much context. What dosage gives you a 1/1000 chances of a psychotic break? Are you aware people are just taking whatever amount of Ketamine they feel like? You seem to be arguing that Ketamine is somehow 300+ times safer than SSRIs as if you can compare the two 1:1. That is now how medication works.
      - BjoernKW 2y ago
        > You said most symptoms were permanent, don't back down now. Sexual Dysfunction is a pretty broad term, how would you even link it to being affected by an SSRI? There you go: https://www.tga.gov.au/news/safety-updates/updated-warnings-about-persistent-sexual-dysfunction-antidepressants#cases-of-persistent-sexual-dysfunction- https://www.tga.gov.au/news/safety-updates/updated-warnings-... https://annals-general-psychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12991-023-00447-0#Sec20 https://annals-general-psychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles... https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8061302/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8061302/ https://rxisk.org/post-ssri-sexual-dysfunction-pssd/ https://rxisk.org/post-ssri-sexual-dysfunction-pssd/ > Where are you getting this number? There you go (for instance): "Cohen suggests a low rate of prolonged psychotic reactions in LSD users (1.8 per 1000) [19]" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-024-02800-5#Sec35 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-024-02800-5#Sec35 > Are you aware people are just taking whatever amount of Ketamine they feel like? Ketamine is a totally different type of drug. Deriving anything about psychedelics from the amount of Ketamine people take is entirely nonsensical.

BjoernKW 2y ago

With SSRIs you have a one in three chance for any number of the following side effects; many of them permanent, even after discontinuing medication (if you actually manage to do so, since SSRI come with severe withdrawal symptoms): - sexual dysfunction - loss of emotion and creativity - drowsiness - insomnia (including real fun stuff like night terrors) - fatigue - nausea - tremors I'd hardly call that safe or manageable. With even the most potent psychedelics such as LSD, on the other hand, there's merely a one in thousand chance for severe side effects. I'd go as far as prohibiting the prescription of SSRIs for all but the most severe cases (such as a severe depression where the patient is actually suicidal). For everything else these drugs are commonly used for, e.g., mild depression, OCD, or IBS, there are other - in many cases better - options with far less devastating (if any) adverse effects.

Capricorn2481 2y ago
> many of them permanent Almost none of these would be permanent, and you certainly don't have a 1 in 3 chance of them being permanent. Where did you get that number? > With even the most potent psychedelics such as LSD, on the other hand, there's merely a one in thousand chance for severe side effects. This is fucking nuts. We're in a thread about how taking too much can clearly cause weeks of psychosis, and how easy it is to do that. There's nothing wrong with warning about the risks of SSRIs, but to claim you have a 1 in 3 chance of having permanent nausea while, in the same breath, claiming psychedelics are 100x safer, is beyond irresponsible.
- BjoernKW 2y ago
  > Almost none of these would be permanent Sexual dysfunction caused by SSRIs in many cases persists for the rest of the patient's life. > and you certainly don't have a 1 in 3 chance of them being permanent. Where did you get that number? Those are actual numbers from scientific studies: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2719451/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2719451/ > in the same breath, claiming psychedelics are 100x safer, is beyond irresponsible. Stating mere facts isn't irresponsible and those are the facts: When taking SSRIs you have a one in three chance to permanently and severely change your life for the worse. When taking LSD you have a 1 in 1,000 chance of suffering a psychotic break. What's irresponsible - and unethical - is twisting and misrepresenting these facts - to the extent of outright lying about the purported innocuousness of SSRI, as is wont in the psychiatric community.
  - Capricorn2481 2y ago
    > Sexual dysfunction caused by SSRIs in many cases persists for the rest of the patient's life You said most symptoms were permanent, don't back down now. Sexual Dysfunction is a pretty broad term, how would you even link it to being affected by an SSRI? > Those are actual numbers from scientific studies: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2719451/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2719451/ Literally says NOTHING about being permanent, this is about symptoms experienced while on SSRIs. Did you read your own source? > When taking LSD you have a 1 in 1,000 chance of suffering a psychotic break Where are you getting this number? It lacks so much context. What dosage gives you a 1/1000 chances of a psychotic break? Are you aware people are just taking whatever amount of Ketamine they feel like? You seem to be arguing that Ketamine is somehow 300+ times safer than SSRIs as if you can compare the two 1:1. That is now how medication works.
    - BjoernKW 2y ago
      > You said most symptoms were permanent, don't back down now. Sexual Dysfunction is a pretty broad term, how would you even link it to being affected by an SSRI? There you go: https://www.tga.gov.au/news/safety-updates/updated-warnings-about-persistent-sexual-dysfunction-antidepressants#cases-of-persistent-sexual-dysfunction- https://www.tga.gov.au/news/safety-updates/updated-warnings-... https://annals-general-psychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12991-023-00447-0#Sec20 https://annals-general-psychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles... https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8061302/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8061302/ https://rxisk.org/post-ssri-sexual-dysfunction-pssd/ https://rxisk.org/post-ssri-sexual-dysfunction-pssd/ > Where are you getting this number? There you go (for instance): "Cohen suggests a low rate of prolonged psychotic reactions in LSD users (1.8 per 1000) [19]" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-024-02800-5#Sec35 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-024-02800-5#Sec35 > Are you aware people are just taking whatever amount of Ketamine they feel like? Ketamine is a totally different type of drug. Deriving anything about psychedelics from the amount of Ketamine people take is entirely nonsensical.