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Back in 1995, Carl Sagan had a relevant thought: I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - [...] when awesome technolog

Back in 1995, Carl Sagan had a relevant thought: I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - [...] when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what’s true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.[0] 0 - https://www.azquotes.com/quote/1069554 https://www.azquotes.com/quote/1069554

zfg 2y ago
More here: https://www.openculture.com/2025/02/carl-sagan-predicts-the-decline-of-america-unable-to-know-whats-true.html https://www.openculture.com/2025/02/carl-sagan-predicts-the-...
kcplate 2y ago
I have seen that quote dragged out lately as some sort of prophecy of 2025…but it really speaks to the exact opposite in my opinion. Smartphones and the internet have given the layperson awesome technology literally in their hands. The entire election of 2024 was driven by the people specifically questioning those in authority…and just what exactly is the “public interest”? Is it what the public demands? Or is it what some elite few say it should be? Seems to me whatever time that Sagan envisioned, it certainly isn’t this time we are in right now.
- bdangubic 2y ago
  The entire election of 2024 was driven by the people specifically questioning those in authority you really think this???! so we should expect the same in 2028 but at much larger scale now though, as now we have actual authority who is not caring for either constitution or the rule of law, left side winning all 50 states? I think not, the questioning of authority is what people in power make people without think what actually happen… :)
- xvector 2y ago
  I 100% agree. Anyone can use the Sagan quote to justify why they lost. The quote is just used as a fancy way of calling people with different views stupid. "Society is failing because people are dumber, and thats why they voted for X, when a smart person like me would have voted for Y!"
  - __loam 2y ago
    This is such a reductive view of what happened in 2024. Oligarchs openly supported a political candidate that has attacked experts time and again on things that are provably true because it's inconvenient to their narrative. We know Musk spent hundreds of millions of dollars supporting one side because it was in his interest. Mark Zuckerberg loves that side because they're not going to regulate his objectively harmful platform. Since this administration entered office, it has attacked agencies and organizations that do things like prepare for climate change, educate our children, provide essential Healthcare to 10s of millions of Americans, do basic scientific research, and protect consumers from financial fraud. Even if you get rid of these organizations, climate disasters will still happen (and insurance companies will still pull out of states like Florida and California), kids still need basic education to function in a high technology society, people are still getting sick, China is pulling ahead on public research, and fraudsters are still stealing from the American public. This administration is bad because it's attacking the career public servants and agencies that are a net positive for our society. We get back more than the investment here in innumerable ways. It is stupid to try and dismantle the parts of government that work and work well. So shut the hell up with this if they were smart they would have voted for Y bullshit as if this was ever a good faith alternative to the liberal program the dems ran on.
    - xvector 2y ago
      I pay about 50% in taxes. These agencies are a net positive at an unjustifiably high cost. Most tax dollars are wasted/grifted. Have you ever worked at a government contractor? Those that have will laugh at your statements here. $80 screws, $250 staplers, the list goes on. I've had n>1 friends that flipped their political alignment after seeing the sheer wastage here. There is so much wastage and grift going on, and someone needs to come in, shock the system, and reduce it to the bare minimum.
- ty6853 2y ago
  Meanwhile go on oddysee or irc and people are 3d printing guns on a days unskilled laborer wages of tools and another days wages of materials, while discussing anarchist theory or materials science. Some of them even using such technology to fight against ethnic cleansing in Myanmar. Can't stop the signal. Work on your own local reality, with what you have, where you are, with those around you without obsessing about whatever the gullible hordes fall for next, which is probably the same things they have since inception of human culture.
- kuhsaft 2y ago
  > Smartphones and the internet have given the layperson awesome technology literally in their hands. The quote is "awesome technological powers", which, I think, is different from having a technological device. There are the data brokers, social media giants, and governments that have the technological power to manipulate the masses. > The entire election of 2024 was driven by the people specifically questioning those in authority The quote: "when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority". Are they serving their own agenda or the agenda of others through the media they consume? Are they knowledgable in their questioning?
  - kcplate 2y ago
    > Are they serving their own agenda or the agenda of others through the media they consume? Are they knowledgable in their questioning? Are you? I bet you think you are knowledgeable in your questioning, fully in tune with reality, serving your own agenda and above “their agenda”. I’d estimate that you probably are. Seems to me that most people are capable of understanding what is important to them so I don’t buy into the mass manipulation thing.
  - throw0101d 2y ago
    > There are the data brokers, social media giants, and governments that have the technological power to manipulate the masses. During Trump's inauguration, it was a bunch of technologists with front row seats, not his government cabinet picks. * https://www.kron4.com/news/national/bay-area-tech-ceos-get-front-row-seats-at-trump-inauguration-what-this-means/ https://www.kron4.com/news/national/bay-area-tech-ceos-get-f...
- __loam 2y ago
  How much of this was good faith questioning and how much of it was that the public has been propagandized by platforms whose algorithms favor outrage and anger?
- zfg 2y ago
  [flagged]
- AdieuToLogic 2y ago
  > I have seen that quote dragged out lately as some sort of prophecy of 2025… 2025 has nothing to do with my reason for citing this quote. > Smartphones and the internet have given the layperson awesome technology literally in their hands. The entire election of 2024 was driven by the people specifically questioning those in authority… Neither of these opinions are relevant either. The point of my citing the Sagan quote was to illuminate the danger we, as a society, find ourselves in as aptly described. The influence social media offerings have on public opinion is both well documented and extreme. > ... and just what exactly is the “public interest”? The applicable quote is "no one representing the public interest", which obviously identifies elected government officials. > Is it what the public demands? Or is it what some elite few say it should be? Not directly aside from voting and absolutely not, in that order. Suggesting the latter is disingenuous at best. > Seems to me whatever time that Sagan envisioned, it certainly isn’t this time we are in right now. Seems to me we disagree, as one could easily argue a handful of corporations (Twitter, Facebook, TikTok, et al.) have undue influence over the information billions of people consume, be it of the "mis" or "dis" variety.
tolciho 2y ago
Oswald Spengler also wrote stuff in "The Decline of the West", in particular about the rise of Caesar types at particular moments in the lifetime of civilizations considered as organisms that grow, flourish, and decline. On the other hand, Spengler may have been overly enthusiastic in fitting history to suit his narrative. Spengler was not well received by some, particularily those optimists who believe such things as "rain follows the plow", or whatever that goes by these days. The graph goes up and to the right; therefore, Singularity. These optimists may likewise be overly enthusiastic in fitting reality to a particular narrative.
- gom_jabbar 2y ago
  That why it's ironic that some techno-optimists have embraced Nick Land's philosophy, given that his work fundamentally challenges their core assumptions: Converging upon terrestrial meltdown singularity, phase-out culture accelerates through its digitech-heated adaptive landscape, passing through compression thresholds normed to an intensive logistic curve: 1500, 1756, 1884, 1948, 1980, 1996, 2004, 2008, 2010, 2011 ... Nothing human makes it out of the near-future. [0] [0] https://retrochronic.com/#meltdown https://retrochronic.com/#meltdown

zfg 2y ago

More here: https://www.openculture.com/2025/02/carl-sagan-predicts-the-decline-of-america-unable-to-know-whats-true.html https://www.openculture.com/2025/02/carl-sagan-predicts-the-...

kcplate 2y ago

I have seen that quote dragged out lately as some sort of prophecy of 2025…but it really speaks to the exact opposite in my opinion. Smartphones and the internet have given the layperson awesome technology literally in their hands. The entire election of 2024 was driven by the people specifically questioning those in authority…and just what exactly is the “public interest”? Is it what the public demands? Or is it what some elite few say it should be? Seems to me whatever time that Sagan envisioned, it certainly isn’t this time we are in right now.

bdangubic 2y ago
The entire election of 2024 was driven by the people specifically questioning those in authority you really think this???! so we should expect the same in 2028 but at much larger scale now though, as now we have actual authority who is not caring for either constitution or the rule of law, left side winning all 50 states? I think not, the questioning of authority is what people in power make people without think what actually happen… :)
xvector 2y ago
I 100% agree. Anyone can use the Sagan quote to justify why they lost. The quote is just used as a fancy way of calling people with different views stupid. "Society is failing because people are dumber, and thats why they voted for X, when a smart person like me would have voted for Y!"
- __loam 2y ago
  This is such a reductive view of what happened in 2024. Oligarchs openly supported a political candidate that has attacked experts time and again on things that are provably true because it's inconvenient to their narrative. We know Musk spent hundreds of millions of dollars supporting one side because it was in his interest. Mark Zuckerberg loves that side because they're not going to regulate his objectively harmful platform. Since this administration entered office, it has attacked agencies and organizations that do things like prepare for climate change, educate our children, provide essential Healthcare to 10s of millions of Americans, do basic scientific research, and protect consumers from financial fraud. Even if you get rid of these organizations, climate disasters will still happen (and insurance companies will still pull out of states like Florida and California), kids still need basic education to function in a high technology society, people are still getting sick, China is pulling ahead on public research, and fraudsters are still stealing from the American public. This administration is bad because it's attacking the career public servants and agencies that are a net positive for our society. We get back more than the investment here in innumerable ways. It is stupid to try and dismantle the parts of government that work and work well. So shut the hell up with this if they were smart they would have voted for Y bullshit as if this was ever a good faith alternative to the liberal program the dems ran on.
  - xvector 2y ago
    I pay about 50% in taxes. These agencies are a net positive at an unjustifiably high cost. Most tax dollars are wasted/grifted. Have you ever worked at a government contractor? Those that have will laugh at your statements here. $80 screws, $250 staplers, the list goes on. I've had n>1 friends that flipped their political alignment after seeing the sheer wastage here. There is so much wastage and grift going on, and someone needs to come in, shock the system, and reduce it to the bare minimum.
ty6853 2y ago
Meanwhile go on oddysee or irc and people are 3d printing guns on a days unskilled laborer wages of tools and another days wages of materials, while discussing anarchist theory or materials science. Some of them even using such technology to fight against ethnic cleansing in Myanmar. Can't stop the signal. Work on your own local reality, with what you have, where you are, with those around you without obsessing about whatever the gullible hordes fall for next, which is probably the same things they have since inception of human culture.
kuhsaft 2y ago
> Smartphones and the internet have given the layperson awesome technology literally in their hands. The quote is "awesome technological powers", which, I think, is different from having a technological device. There are the data brokers, social media giants, and governments that have the technological power to manipulate the masses. > The entire election of 2024 was driven by the people specifically questioning those in authority The quote: "when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority". Are they serving their own agenda or the agenda of others through the media they consume? Are they knowledgable in their questioning?
- kcplate 2y ago
  > Are they serving their own agenda or the agenda of others through the media they consume? Are they knowledgable in their questioning? Are you? I bet you think you are knowledgeable in your questioning, fully in tune with reality, serving your own agenda and above “their agenda”. I’d estimate that you probably are. Seems to me that most people are capable of understanding what is important to them so I don’t buy into the mass manipulation thing.
- throw0101d 2y ago
  > There are the data brokers, social media giants, and governments that have the technological power to manipulate the masses. During Trump's inauguration, it was a bunch of technologists with front row seats, not his government cabinet picks. * https://www.kron4.com/news/national/bay-area-tech-ceos-get-front-row-seats-at-trump-inauguration-what-this-means/ https://www.kron4.com/news/national/bay-area-tech-ceos-get-f...
__loam 2y ago
How much of this was good faith questioning and how much of it was that the public has been propagandized by platforms whose algorithms favor outrage and anger?
zfg 2y ago
[flagged]
AdieuToLogic 2y ago
> I have seen that quote dragged out lately as some sort of prophecy of 2025… 2025 has nothing to do with my reason for citing this quote. > Smartphones and the internet have given the layperson awesome technology literally in their hands. The entire election of 2024 was driven by the people specifically questioning those in authority… Neither of these opinions are relevant either. The point of my citing the Sagan quote was to illuminate the danger we, as a society, find ourselves in as aptly described. The influence social media offerings have on public opinion is both well documented and extreme. > ... and just what exactly is the “public interest”? The applicable quote is "no one representing the public interest", which obviously identifies elected government officials. > Is it what the public demands? Or is it what some elite few say it should be? Not directly aside from voting and absolutely not, in that order. Suggesting the latter is disingenuous at best. > Seems to me whatever time that Sagan envisioned, it certainly isn’t this time we are in right now. Seems to me we disagree, as one could easily argue a handful of corporations (Twitter, Facebook, TikTok, et al.) have undue influence over the information billions of people consume, be it of the "mis" or "dis" variety.

tolciho 2y ago

Oswald Spengler also wrote stuff in "The Decline of the West", in particular about the rise of Caesar types at particular moments in the lifetime of civilizations considered as organisms that grow, flourish, and decline. On the other hand, Spengler may have been overly enthusiastic in fitting history to suit his narrative. Spengler was not well received by some, particularily those optimists who believe such things as "rain follows the plow", or whatever that goes by these days. The graph goes up and to the right; therefore, Singularity. These optimists may likewise be overly enthusiastic in fitting reality to a particular narrative.

gom_jabbar 2y ago
That why it's ironic that some techno-optimists have embraced Nick Land's philosophy, given that his work fundamentally challenges their core assumptions: Converging upon terrestrial meltdown singularity, phase-out culture accelerates through its digitech-heated adaptive landscape, passing through compression thresholds normed to an intensive logistic curve: 1500, 1756, 1884, 1948, 1980, 1996, 2004, 2008, 2010, 2011 ... Nothing human makes it out of the near-future. [0] [0] https://retrochronic.com/#meltdown https://retrochronic.com/#meltdown