5 ms·

Looks pretty similar to what I'd expect to a regular European town. What are you comparing it to that you see such a drastic difference?

lukan 2y ago
Having travelled quite a bit in europe, I disagree. There are european towns with train stations that look similar clean. But not at all everywhere. Eastern europe in general less. Norther europe more. Western and southern europe is mixed. Graffiti I have seen quite a bit, but broken glass or other types of vandalism are sadly common, too.
- jwr 2y ago
  Central European here (Poland). The bizarre and amazing thing is the change that's been happening in the region over the last 20 years or so: the large cities have become very clean. So, what you wrote stands true for smaller places, but large cities are now very clean. Not quite Japan-level, but close, and certainly much cleaner than anything in western Europe.
  - lukan 2y ago
    Yeah, true. I know that phenomen. And it is true in eastern germany as well. Dresden for example has always working elevators and the stations are looked after regulary. The small towns? It can take weeks, before a broken elevator is fixed, or a public toilet reopened. (If there is one at all in the first place) Until then you have to step over pee and shit.
    - ido 2y ago
      Berlin is filthy and seems to have only gotten more so in recent decades.
  - lII1lIlI11ll 2y ago
    Have you been to Japan? I can't say that Krakow made an impression on me of being "close" to Tokyo in cleanliness TBH.
    - jwr 2y ago
      Yes, in fact I live in Japan right now. Warsaw (especially the center) is quite close. Certainly much closer than most cities in western Europe.
renewiltord 2y ago
Things are actually open. In Switzerland everything closes. Japan is notable because there’ll be people everywhere and things will still be clean. Compare football games as example.
- michpoch 2y ago
  > In Switzerland everything closes Sure, because there are worker rights and we do not keep people working at night unless there's a reason. > Japan is notable because there’ll be people everywhere and things will still be clean What do you mean people will be everywhere? There are people as well in regular European towns and it's clean as well.
  - astrange 2y ago
    > Sure, because there are worker rights and we do not keep people working at night unless there's a reason. Part of this is low wages, but the population density also means you can easily find people who'll work the night shift. Or sometimes the store owner does it. But no, they aren't like Europeans who think workers should have the right to work five hours a year.
    - thatguy0900 2y ago
      "Five hours a year" is a gross thing to say. Surely we should emulate the Japanese, where death by overwork is a joked about phenomenon
      - astrange 2y ago
        Don't get all your news from 2000s stereotypes. There was a fair amount of reform for that in the last decade. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/AVHWPEJPA065NRUG https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/AVHWPEJPA065NRUG China is probably the better example for long work hours right now.
      - ekianjo 2y ago
        > death by overwork Stop reading tabloids
sho_hn 2y ago
Don't bother :) There are other examples, but the US/HN audience is particularly fascinated with Japan in a "if you have to pick one" kind of way. Perhaps also because it's an old adversary. It's much better than 0 outside benchmarking, so I've learned to just let these threads roll on.
Spooky23 2y ago
I’ve been on a few business and pleasure trips to France, Italy and Spain was struck by the volume of graffiti. Way more than in NYC or Boston today, it reminded me of NYC when I was a kid in the 80s.
- redmajor12 2y ago
  Same in Germany. Graffiti everywhere; walls, buildings, fences, signs, historic monuments. It's awful and I don't know why they can't manage to do anything about it, but it also seems like no one cares about it as a problem to begin with. To me, such an individual invasion of the public space seems like a mockery of the common trust and the notion that the Europeans (and the Germans especially) have some sort of communal responsibility.
GuB-42 2y ago
> Looks pretty similar to what I'd expect to a regular European town. Europe is not one country, and even within the same country, there may be big differences between regions, and within the city itself. Naples and Geneva for example are like polar opposites. Japan is very uniform by comparison, and about as clean and well maintained as the best European cities, I'd say the US is about average by European standards, but with less variation. The general, very rough idea with Europe is that the further north you go, the cleaner it is.

lukan 2y ago

Having travelled quite a bit in europe, I disagree. There are european towns with train stations that look similar clean. But not at all everywhere. Eastern europe in general less. Norther europe more. Western and southern europe is mixed. Graffiti I have seen quite a bit, but broken glass or other types of vandalism are sadly common, too.

jwr 2y ago
Central European here (Poland). The bizarre and amazing thing is the change that's been happening in the region over the last 20 years or so: the large cities have become very clean. So, what you wrote stands true for smaller places, but large cities are now very clean. Not quite Japan-level, but close, and certainly much cleaner than anything in western Europe.
- lukan 2y ago
  Yeah, true. I know that phenomen. And it is true in eastern germany as well. Dresden for example has always working elevators and the stations are looked after regulary. The small towns? It can take weeks, before a broken elevator is fixed, or a public toilet reopened. (If there is one at all in the first place) Until then you have to step over pee and shit.
  - ido 2y ago
    Berlin is filthy and seems to have only gotten more so in recent decades.
- lII1lIlI11ll 2y ago
  Have you been to Japan? I can't say that Krakow made an impression on me of being "close" to Tokyo in cleanliness TBH.
  - jwr 2y ago
    Yes, in fact I live in Japan right now. Warsaw (especially the center) is quite close. Certainly much closer than most cities in western Europe.

renewiltord 2y ago

Things are actually open. In Switzerland everything closes. Japan is notable because there’ll be people everywhere and things will still be clean. Compare football games as example.

michpoch 2y ago
> In Switzerland everything closes Sure, because there are worker rights and we do not keep people working at night unless there's a reason. > Japan is notable because there’ll be people everywhere and things will still be clean What do you mean people will be everywhere? There are people as well in regular European towns and it's clean as well.
- astrange 2y ago
  > Sure, because there are worker rights and we do not keep people working at night unless there's a reason. Part of this is low wages, but the population density also means you can easily find people who'll work the night shift. Or sometimes the store owner does it. But no, they aren't like Europeans who think workers should have the right to work five hours a year.
  - thatguy0900 2y ago
    "Five hours a year" is a gross thing to say. Surely we should emulate the Japanese, where death by overwork is a joked about phenomenon
    - astrange 2y ago
      Don't get all your news from 2000s stereotypes. There was a fair amount of reform for that in the last decade. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/AVHWPEJPA065NRUG https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/AVHWPEJPA065NRUG China is probably the better example for long work hours right now.
    - ekianjo 2y ago
      > death by overwork Stop reading tabloids

sho_hn 2y ago

Don't bother :) There are other examples, but the US/HN audience is particularly fascinated with Japan in a "if you have to pick one" kind of way. Perhaps also because it's an old adversary. It's much better than 0 outside benchmarking, so I've learned to just let these threads roll on.

Spooky23 2y ago

I’ve been on a few business and pleasure trips to France, Italy and Spain was struck by the volume of graffiti. Way more than in NYC or Boston today, it reminded me of NYC when I was a kid in the 80s.

redmajor12 2y ago
Same in Germany. Graffiti everywhere; walls, buildings, fences, signs, historic monuments. It's awful and I don't know why they can't manage to do anything about it, but it also seems like no one cares about it as a problem to begin with. To me, such an individual invasion of the public space seems like a mockery of the common trust and the notion that the Europeans (and the Germans especially) have some sort of communal responsibility.

GuB-42 2y ago

> Looks pretty similar to what I'd expect to a regular European town. Europe is not one country, and even within the same country, there may be big differences between regions, and within the city itself. Naples and Geneva for example are like polar opposites. Japan is very uniform by comparison, and about as clean and well maintained as the best European cities, I'd say the US is about average by European standards, but with less variation. The general, very rough idea with Europe is that the further north you go, the cleaner it is.