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by _fs 2y ago

[flagged]

dang 2y ago
> No discussion of this sort shall be allowed on hn Here is the largest HN thread from the last 3 months (and the 3rd largest in all of the last year): The young, inexperienced engineers aiding DOGE - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42910910 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42910910 - Feb 2025 (2954 comments) Other recent large discussions include: Elon Musk's Demolition Crew - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42968430 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42968430 - Feb 2025 (304 comments) DOGE employees ordered to stop using Slack - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42951458 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42951458 - Feb 2025 (355 comments) Onlookers freak out as 25-year-old set loose on Treasury computer system - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42936421 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42936421 - Feb 2025 (130 comments) In fact, this is probably the most-discussed topic of the last month on HN; I can't think of another, offhand, that would come close. (Edit: probably the Tiktok ban business?)
- mdhb 2y ago
  Don’t tell me with a straight face when you have access to the data more than anyone that these posts aren’t getting flagged en mass. We are all watching it happen.
  - like_any_other 2y ago
    Which part of dang's post are you asserting is inaccurate?
    - mdhb 2y ago
      The part where he tries to point to a handful of exceptions to refute the idea that discussions about Musk are getting flagged en mass. It’s really not a difficult bit of text to parse. Edit: I have to reply to the comment below by editing this comment because I’ve now been banned from making new comments but I couldn’t help but notice you managed to take the original quote and literally remove half of it which would have made your argument look very silly. To be fair Dang did the exact same thing. Second edit: oh and would you look at that… it’s flagged. Exactly as predicted.
      - like_any_other 2y ago
        But the claim was "No discussion of this sort shall be allowed on hn", and his data shows that significant discussion is happening. Mass flagging doesn't change this. That is despite violating HN's "intellectual curiosity" rule.
        anigbrowl 2y ago
        You know perfectly well that the original top comment was expressive and hyperbolic in nature, stop trying to analyze it as if it were a dry quantitative claim. The point, which is extremely obvious, is that many posts are being systematically flagged for reasons of favoritism. They're clearly HN relevant, given that they relate to a tech titan effecting drastic changes in government structure, with significant security and other, by technical rather than legal means. Systematic flagging of posts about the activites of the Biden administration would have been equally questionable.
        dang 2y ago
        Please don't cross into personal attack.
        anigbrowl 2y ago
        I haven't. It's a critique of the argument.
        dang 2y ago
        "You know perfectly well" is a way of accusing another person of being disingenuous and this is a step into personal attack. We don't know what others know—that would require being a mind-reader—and it's against the site guidelines to be aggressive about it. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        anigbrowl 2y ago
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - 77pt77 2y ago
    Some are (also) dead. Dead means, to my understanding, killed by moderation.
    - mdhb 2y ago
      I don’t know why it’s supposed to be some secret but there is absolutely an effort here from multiple parties to minimise conversation on the topic. We can debate the reasons and logic as to why that might be but to pretend it isn’t happening is just silly.
      - philipkglass 2y ago
        You can see an alternate ranking of front-page stories that ignores flags here: https://news.ycombinator.com/active https://news.ycombinator.com/active As I write, 4 out of the top 10 stories on "active" appear related to Musk, Trump, or both (numbers 4, 5, 8, 10): 1. Meta torrented & seeded 81.7 TB dataset containing copyrighted data 2. Apple Ordered by UK to Create Global iCloud Encryption Backdoor 3. Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel 4. A German court rules: X must provide researchers access to data 5. Elon Musk's Demolition Crew 6. The origins of 60-Hz as a power frequency 7. Stop Using Zip Codes for Geospatial Analysis 8. Announcing the data.gov archive 9. U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users' encrypted accounts 10. Feds Halt the National Electric Vehicle Charging Program If you prefer what you see on "active", you can bookmark that as your standard entry point to HN. I flag stories when they appear to be getting repetitive. I haven't actually done that with any of these stories, but I have previously done it with submissions about COVID, OpenAI, and Matt Mullenweg when they come in waves.
        ttepasse 2y ago
        If you go on the further pages of /active you'll find a lot of flagged posts. An epidemic of flagging by the looks of it.
      - pvg 2y ago
        I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting there aren't flags, and a lot of them. The argument is that this is pretty much how HN works and is supposed to, for most repetitive topics. You can certainly make the case it should work some different way, either in general or for this topic specifically. But it's not some nefarious plot.
  - dang 2y ago
    Of course. I've spent most of my time this week posting explanations and answering emails about this, so it's a bit odd to hear that I'm denying it, but I understand how these perceptions arise. It may seem strange, but both of these things are true: (1) it's the most-discussed topic that exists on HN right now; and (2) most of the submissions about it are getting flagged. If you think about how the internet (and HN) work, it's to be expected: there's a tsunami of submissions; some are getting through and producing condition #1; others are getting flagged and producing condition #2. This has happened many times on HN over the years, and every time it happens, the community splits between the people who want more and the people who feel like it's too much. For example, here's a case from 2020 where someone felt that HN was suppressing stories about what in fact was the most-discussed topic on the site: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624962 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624962. This dynamic has been around a long time.
    - ivanech 2y ago
      Thank you, Dan! I really appreciate all the work you do making HN what it is
    - dttze 2y ago
      How about you just show who is flagging instead of talking around people? It's trivial to show data about moderation here, but you never do. Why?
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - dang 2y ago
        Voting and flagging are intimate data—I wouldn't dream of disclosing that about anyone. I think most HN users would take that as a betrayal of the basic community contract. Also, I don't see what good would come of it. It would lead to much more conflict, and would change the character of the site. People would no longer feel free to express their preferences—actually they would no longer be free to express them. This is not a way to fix the problems we face as a community.
- tomrod 2y ago
  @DanG, you replied to my previous comment about this being a conversation that needs to happen. Thanks for being even handed and giving folks forbearance.
- silexia 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - MrFots 2y ago
    [flagged]
- relaxing 2y ago
  Imagine if this standard was applied to any other topic. “We’ve already had four Rust topics this month, better flag any new ones!” This article is not the same news as the others you’ve listed. It’s disingenuous to claim they’re all the same.
  - dang 2y ago
    Avoiding repetition is a core principle here. It applies to every topic. I've written extensively in the last few days explaining the moderation approach to cases like this. Let me dig up some links for you... Edit: here's one post that covers the basics: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42911011 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42911011. If you (or anyone) want further explanation, here are links that cover some of the principles we're applying here: major ongoing topic - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20major%20ongoing%20topic&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... significant new information - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=%22significant%20new%20information%22%20by%3Adang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... political overlap - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=political%20overlap%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... downweighting follow-ups - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=follow-up%20downweight&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... curiosity vs. repetition - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=curiosity%20repetition%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... turning off flags - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20turn%20off%20flags&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... All we're doing is applying those principles the way we usually do. That doesn't mean we make every individual call correctly—we definitely don't. (I wrote about that recently here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42787306 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42787306.) But the principles are stable, and as far as I know they're the right ones for HN. If people want us to change how we moderate, it's not enough to demand that we unflag more stories about a specific $Topic that some users feel strongly about. That argument doesn't work because there is always such a $Topic going on. Rather, you'd need to argue either that we're not following our principles, or that they're the wrong principles (and in that case propose better ones). I'd personally be very interested in such arguments; like anyone who has worked hard on a problem for years, I'd be both surprised and gratified to learn about a better solution. We just need to be talking about the same problem. In HN's case, the problem is how to optimize an open web forum for intellectual curiosity (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=curiosity%20optimiz%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...).
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

[flagged]

by _fs 2y ago

[flagged]

dang 2y ago

> No discussion of this sort shall be allowed on hn Here is the largest HN thread from the last 3 months (and the 3rd largest in all of the last year): The young, inexperienced engineers aiding DOGE - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42910910 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42910910 - Feb 2025 (2954 comments) Other recent large discussions include: Elon Musk's Demolition Crew - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42968430 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42968430 - Feb 2025 (304 comments) DOGE employees ordered to stop using Slack - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42951458 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42951458 - Feb 2025 (355 comments) Onlookers freak out as 25-year-old set loose on Treasury computer system - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42936421 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42936421 - Feb 2025 (130 comments) In fact, this is probably the most-discussed topic of the last month on HN; I can't think of another, offhand, that would come close. (Edit: probably the Tiktok ban business?)

mdhb 2y ago
Don’t tell me with a straight face when you have access to the data more than anyone that these posts aren’t getting flagged en mass. We are all watching it happen.
- like_any_other 2y ago
  Which part of dang's post are you asserting is inaccurate?
  - mdhb 2y ago
    The part where he tries to point to a handful of exceptions to refute the idea that discussions about Musk are getting flagged en mass. It’s really not a difficult bit of text to parse. Edit: I have to reply to the comment below by editing this comment because I’ve now been banned from making new comments but I couldn’t help but notice you managed to take the original quote and literally remove half of it which would have made your argument look very silly. To be fair Dang did the exact same thing. Second edit: oh and would you look at that… it’s flagged. Exactly as predicted.
    - like_any_other 2y ago
      But the claim was "No discussion of this sort shall be allowed on hn", and his data shows that significant discussion is happening. Mass flagging doesn't change this. That is despite violating HN's "intellectual curiosity" rule.
      - anigbrowl 2y ago
        You know perfectly well that the original top comment was expressive and hyperbolic in nature, stop trying to analyze it as if it were a dry quantitative claim. The point, which is extremely obvious, is that many posts are being systematically flagged for reasons of favoritism. They're clearly HN relevant, given that they relate to a tech titan effecting drastic changes in government structure, with significant security and other, by technical rather than legal means. Systematic flagging of posts about the activites of the Biden administration would have been equally questionable.
        dang 2y ago
        Please don't cross into personal attack.
        anigbrowl 2y ago
        I haven't. It's a critique of the argument.
        dang 2y ago
        "You know perfectly well" is a way of accusing another person of being disingenuous and this is a step into personal attack. We don't know what others know—that would require being a mind-reader—and it's against the site guidelines to be aggressive about it. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        anigbrowl 2y ago
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- 77pt77 2y ago
  Some are (also) dead. Dead means, to my understanding, killed by moderation.
  - mdhb 2y ago
    I don’t know why it’s supposed to be some secret but there is absolutely an effort here from multiple parties to minimise conversation on the topic. We can debate the reasons and logic as to why that might be but to pretend it isn’t happening is just silly.
    - philipkglass 2y ago
      You can see an alternate ranking of front-page stories that ignores flags here: https://news.ycombinator.com/active https://news.ycombinator.com/active As I write, 4 out of the top 10 stories on "active" appear related to Musk, Trump, or both (numbers 4, 5, 8, 10): 1. Meta torrented & seeded 81.7 TB dataset containing copyrighted data 2. Apple Ordered by UK to Create Global iCloud Encryption Backdoor 3. Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel 4. A German court rules: X must provide researchers access to data 5. Elon Musk's Demolition Crew 6. The origins of 60-Hz as a power frequency 7. Stop Using Zip Codes for Geospatial Analysis 8. Announcing the data.gov archive 9. U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users' encrypted accounts 10. Feds Halt the National Electric Vehicle Charging Program If you prefer what you see on "active", you can bookmark that as your standard entry point to HN. I flag stories when they appear to be getting repetitive. I haven't actually done that with any of these stories, but I have previously done it with submissions about COVID, OpenAI, and Matt Mullenweg when they come in waves.
      - ttepasse 2y ago
        If you go on the further pages of /active you'll find a lot of flagged posts. An epidemic of flagging by the looks of it.
    - pvg 2y ago
      I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting there aren't flags, and a lot of them. The argument is that this is pretty much how HN works and is supposed to, for most repetitive topics. You can certainly make the case it should work some different way, either in general or for this topic specifically. But it's not some nefarious plot.
- dang 2y ago
  Of course. I've spent most of my time this week posting explanations and answering emails about this, so it's a bit odd to hear that I'm denying it, but I understand how these perceptions arise. It may seem strange, but both of these things are true: (1) it's the most-discussed topic that exists on HN right now; and (2) most of the submissions about it are getting flagged. If you think about how the internet (and HN) work, it's to be expected: there's a tsunami of submissions; some are getting through and producing condition #1; others are getting flagged and producing condition #2. This has happened many times on HN over the years, and every time it happens, the community splits between the people who want more and the people who feel like it's too much. For example, here's a case from 2020 where someone felt that HN was suppressing stories about what in fact was the most-discussed topic on the site: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624962 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624962. This dynamic has been around a long time.
  - ivanech 2y ago
    Thank you, Dan! I really appreciate all the work you do making HN what it is
  - dttze 2y ago
    How about you just show who is flagging instead of talking around people? It's trivial to show data about moderation here, but you never do. Why?
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - dang 2y ago
      Voting and flagging are intimate data—I wouldn't dream of disclosing that about anyone. I think most HN users would take that as a betrayal of the basic community contract. Also, I don't see what good would come of it. It would lead to much more conflict, and would change the character of the site. People would no longer feel free to express their preferences—actually they would no longer be free to express them. This is not a way to fix the problems we face as a community.
tomrod 2y ago
@DanG, you replied to my previous comment about this being a conversation that needs to happen. Thanks for being even handed and giving folks forbearance.
silexia 2y ago
[flagged]
- MrFots 2y ago
  [flagged]
relaxing 2y ago
Imagine if this standard was applied to any other topic. “We’ve already had four Rust topics this month, better flag any new ones!” This article is not the same news as the others you’ve listed. It’s disingenuous to claim they’re all the same.
- dang 2y ago
  Avoiding repetition is a core principle here. It applies to every topic. I've written extensively in the last few days explaining the moderation approach to cases like this. Let me dig up some links for you... Edit: here's one post that covers the basics: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42911011 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42911011. If you (or anyone) want further explanation, here are links that cover some of the principles we're applying here: major ongoing topic - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20major%20ongoing%20topic&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... significant new information - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=%22significant%20new%20information%22%20by%3Adang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... political overlap - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=political%20overlap%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... downweighting follow-ups - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=follow-up%20downweight&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... curiosity vs. repetition - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=curiosity%20repetition%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... turning off flags - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20turn%20off%20flags&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... All we're doing is applying those principles the way we usually do. That doesn't mean we make every individual call correctly—we definitely don't. (I wrote about that recently here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42787306 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42787306.) But the principles are stable, and as far as I know they're the right ones for HN. If people want us to change how we moderate, it's not enough to demand that we unflag more stories about a specific $Topic that some users feel strongly about. That argument doesn't work because there is always such a $Topic going on. Rather, you'd need to argue either that we're not following our principles, or that they're the wrong principles (and in that case propose better ones). I'd personally be very interested in such arguments; like anyone who has worked hard on a problem for years, I'd be both surprised and gratified to learn about a better solution. We just need to be talking about the same problem. In HN's case, the problem is how to optimize an open web forum for intellectual curiosity (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=curiosity%20optimiz%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...).

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]