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> Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor His reprimand is a clear signal that he won't tolerate brigading. M

> Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor His reprimand is a clear signal that he won't tolerate brigading. Marcan was making a pretty blatant attempt at using social pressure to influence decisions.

duxup 2y ago
I'm not arguing that this is or isn't a problem but I think the statement "using social pressure to influence decisions" is so general that it could apply to just any discussion. That's kinda what discussion is. Granted there are acceptable methods within that, and not acceptable.
- nicce 2y ago
  Martin has a habit of polarizing and aggregating discussions too much. It is not healthy at all. Linus is definitely correct, especially since he has the history of doing the same and he has tried to fix it. Imagine if the discussion would have started with an article like this. Patch probably would be merged already: https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1006805/f75d238e25728afe/ https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1006805/f75d238e25728afe/
  - threatofrain 2y ago
    Very doubtful. The maintainer was clear and nothing in there is sufficient to address his criticism: polyglot is unmaintainable and Rust people should write a whole new OS as a separate effort.
    - Yoric 2y ago
      Well, Fuschia has been largely ported to Rust, I believe, so... that's coming.
- bakugo 2y ago
  > "using social pressure to influence decisions" is so general that it could apply to just any discussion Not really. It's one thing to discuss these things directly in the proper channels, namely the mailing list, but it's another thing entirely to make childish, passive-aggressive posts on not-Twitter about how anyone who disagrees with your actions is trying to "sabotage the project" and trying to rally your followers to cancel them on the grounds of "Code of Conduct violations" (once again proving that "Codes of Conduct" are little more than tools to enable cancel culture). He himself acknowledged the fact that what he did was childish and embarrassing by deleting his entire Mastodon account.
- XorNot 2y ago
  Throwing up a call to arms in unrelated discussion venues with the purpose of drawing people to the original venue, or to harass the original participants in other venues, would count though. i.e. no one would consider it acceptable for me to go on reddit and start ranting about a Hacker News username, link the thread and argument, and imply either implicitly or explicitly that they should go and join the argument.
ChocolateGod 2y ago
People using Mastodon to promote pile-ons or brigading? No, never! That's actually one reason I don't use Mastodon, it's extremely common. Isn't this the guy that blocked HackerNews links to the Asahi Linux homepage because the moderators wouldn't do his bidding?
- Hamuko 2y ago
  >Isn't this the guy that blocked HackerNews links to the Asahi Linux homepage because the moderators wouldn't do his bidding? Yup, that was Hector Martin (marcan) as well.
- Philpax 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - busterarm 2y ago
    So moving to effectively censor criticism that you can't control is justified? Maybe the problem IS marcan, as Linus suggested. If you do things that are in the public interest, people are going to have opinions about what you do and on a wide spectrum. If you can't handle that, you probably shouldn't be doing work that's so public and visible. Especially something like maintainer work that is inherently social.
    - Philpax 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - ChocolateGod 2y ago
        Do you have a source for this with proof? Or is it just cause someone said so.
      - HideousKojima 2y ago
        [flagged]
nialv7 2y ago
And that is very fair since brigading is definitely not helping here. However, he should have also done the same to Hellwig for his unproductive behavior, yet he did nothing. Oh and I got this quote for you: > Linus Torvalds admonished the group that he did not want to talk about every subsystem supporting Rust at this time; getting support into some of them is sufficient for now. When Airlie asked what would happen when some subsystem blocks progress, Torvalds answered "that's my job". Source: https://lwn.net/Articles/991062/ https://lwn.net/Articles/991062/ Do your job then, Linus!
mort96 2y ago
I honestly don't understand what the difference is between "brigading" and "complaining about a thing on mastodon". It's not uncommon to express frustration about something/someone associated with the kernel development process, what makes this particular instance "brigading"?
- stonogo 2y ago
  The difference is between posting "ugh, having a hard time with someone on a project, they're blocking this merge and I don't think it's for a good reason" and literally starting your post with "Behold," linking directly to a mailing list post, and misrepresenting the other person's objections as "sabotage."
  - mort96 2y ago
    I mean when what you're frustrated about is a leader actively sabotaging what you're working on...
    - stonogo 2y ago
      Go on?
      - mort96 2y ago
        Then complaining about that on social media is going to sound a lot like "the leader of this subsystem is sabotaging this thing I'm involved with"
        stonogo 2y ago
        Right, and phrased just like that, it wouldn't have been as objectionable. As I said before, the problem is in the specificity and the direct linking to the conversation. I still take issue with the word 'sabotage' being used here, since the person in question didn't do anything except express objections and an intent not to cooperate. Since this was in a context where that person's cooperation is not needed, I'm not sure he sabotaged anything.

duxup 2y ago

I'm not arguing that this is or isn't a problem but I think the statement "using social pressure to influence decisions" is so general that it could apply to just any discussion. That's kinda what discussion is. Granted there are acceptable methods within that, and not acceptable.

nicce 2y ago
Martin has a habit of polarizing and aggregating discussions too much. It is not healthy at all. Linus is definitely correct, especially since he has the history of doing the same and he has tried to fix it. Imagine if the discussion would have started with an article like this. Patch probably would be merged already: https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1006805/f75d238e25728afe/ https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1006805/f75d238e25728afe/
- threatofrain 2y ago
  Very doubtful. The maintainer was clear and nothing in there is sufficient to address his criticism: polyglot is unmaintainable and Rust people should write a whole new OS as a separate effort.
  - Yoric 2y ago
    Well, Fuschia has been largely ported to Rust, I believe, so... that's coming.
bakugo 2y ago
> "using social pressure to influence decisions" is so general that it could apply to just any discussion Not really. It's one thing to discuss these things directly in the proper channels, namely the mailing list, but it's another thing entirely to make childish, passive-aggressive posts on not-Twitter about how anyone who disagrees with your actions is trying to "sabotage the project" and trying to rally your followers to cancel them on the grounds of "Code of Conduct violations" (once again proving that "Codes of Conduct" are little more than tools to enable cancel culture). He himself acknowledged the fact that what he did was childish and embarrassing by deleting his entire Mastodon account.
XorNot 2y ago
Throwing up a call to arms in unrelated discussion venues with the purpose of drawing people to the original venue, or to harass the original participants in other venues, would count though. i.e. no one would consider it acceptable for me to go on reddit and start ranting about a Hacker News username, link the thread and argument, and imply either implicitly or explicitly that they should go and join the argument.

ChocolateGod 2y ago

People using Mastodon to promote pile-ons or brigading? No, never! That's actually one reason I don't use Mastodon, it's extremely common. Isn't this the guy that blocked HackerNews links to the Asahi Linux homepage because the moderators wouldn't do his bidding?

Hamuko 2y ago
>Isn't this the guy that blocked HackerNews links to the Asahi Linux homepage because the moderators wouldn't do his bidding? Yup, that was Hector Martin (marcan) as well.
Philpax 2y ago
[flagged]
- busterarm 2y ago
  So moving to effectively censor criticism that you can't control is justified? Maybe the problem IS marcan, as Linus suggested. If you do things that are in the public interest, people are going to have opinions about what you do and on a wide spectrum. If you can't handle that, you probably shouldn't be doing work that's so public and visible. Especially something like maintainer work that is inherently social.
  - Philpax 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - ChocolateGod 2y ago
      Do you have a source for this with proof? Or is it just cause someone said so.
    - HideousKojima 2y ago
      [flagged]

nialv7 2y ago

And that is very fair since brigading is definitely not helping here. However, he should have also done the same to Hellwig for his unproductive behavior, yet he did nothing. Oh and I got this quote for you: > Linus Torvalds admonished the group that he did not want to talk about every subsystem supporting Rust at this time; getting support into some of them is sufficient for now. When Airlie asked what would happen when some subsystem blocks progress, Torvalds answered "that's my job". Source: https://lwn.net/Articles/991062/ https://lwn.net/Articles/991062/ Do your job then, Linus!

mort96 2y ago

I honestly don't understand what the difference is between "brigading" and "complaining about a thing on mastodon". It's not uncommon to express frustration about something/someone associated with the kernel development process, what makes this particular instance "brigading"?

stonogo 2y ago
The difference is between posting "ugh, having a hard time with someone on a project, they're blocking this merge and I don't think it's for a good reason" and literally starting your post with "Behold," linking directly to a mailing list post, and misrepresenting the other person's objections as "sabotage."
- mort96 2y ago
  I mean when what you're frustrated about is a leader actively sabotaging what you're working on...
  - stonogo 2y ago
    Go on?
    - mort96 2y ago
      Then complaining about that on social media is going to sound a lot like "the leader of this subsystem is sabotaging this thing I'm involved with"
      - stonogo 2y ago
        Right, and phrased just like that, it wouldn't have been as objectionable. As I said before, the problem is in the specificity and the direct linking to the conversation. I still take issue with the word 'sabotage' being used here, since the person in question didn't do anything except express objections and an intent not to cooperate. Since this was in a context where that person's cooperation is not needed, I'm not sure he sabotaged anything.