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>how they intend to secure this "vault" against the current government Is there any risk of the government ordering them to take it down? That seems unlikely t

>how they intend to secure this "vault" against the current government Is there any risk of the government ordering them to take it down? That seems unlikely to me. The US has strong free speech protection, stronger than European free speech protection. >keeping this data online against the express will of the government is gonna cost (political) capital. Costing them political capital (aka the government is unhappy) is different from the government ordering them to take it down. Also, when you say "express will", are you saying the government has explicitly publicly stated that they don't like that Harvard is hosting this data?

dmd 2y ago
> The US has strong free speech protection The US literally just told (e.g., [0]) all scientists working for it they are not permitted to publish papers or speak at conferences or travel. What the US "has" is irrelevant when laws are being ignored. [0] https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/revised-and-extended-what-s-happening-inside-nih-and-nsf https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/revised-and-extend...
- marcinzm 2y ago
  That's an employer telling employees what to do? Google can tell the same thing to it's employees and does. I don't see the relevance to the government telling other entities what to do.
  - dmd 2y ago
    The employer is the US federal government, in this case.
    - marcinzm 2y ago
      And employees signed contracts which allow the government to tell them how to do their jobs or fire them. Just like any other employer. Harvard did not.
      - Teever 2y ago
        Sure. But is it a good thing that their employer did this in this situation? Is it a normal thing for the US government to do? Why or why not? Do other government do this? Which ones and for what reasons?
  - MattGrommes 2y ago
    The federal government isn't just "an employer", it's an extension of the public will funded with public money and should work toward the public good.
    - marcinzm 2y ago
      The topic is if the federal government is ignoring free speech laws in this specific instance. I'm arguing it's not. As for public good, you'd probably find it depressing what the majority of Americans view as good.
CalRobert 2y ago
Whether the US still has this protection of free speech remains to be seen
saghm 2y ago
> Is there any risk of the government ordering them to take it down? That seems unlikely to me. The US has strong free speech protection, stronger than European free speech protection. In other words, you don't think we have to worry about Congress bringing in university presidents to grill them over political activities against the government's current policies occurring on their campuses? Certainly we wouldn't see any of those whose didn't give testimony that the government liked would end up being forced to resign in the aftermath; we're not in the dark ages anymore like we were in 2023...
- Thorrez 2y ago
  I hadn't heard of that case before. However, some government officials saying that someone should resign is a bit different from the government actually forcing someone to resign or be fired. The comment I replied to said "What I'm missing from this announcement though is any mention of how they intend to secure this "vault" against the current government.", which I believe is talking about a case where the government orders Harvard to take the info down. If Harvard will delete the data because a few government officials say they should (but don't order them to do so), then I don't see what can be done to secure the vault against the government. E.g. hosting it in Europe won't be any help, because Harvard could just delete it from the European hosting.
sofixa 2y ago
> The US has strong free speech protection, stronger than European free speech protection Citation needed. "European free speech protection" doesn't exist, each country has its own rules and freedoms. Hungary is drastically less free than e.g. France... but overall, as a rule of thumb, unless for you freedom of speech includes freedom to be a Nazi, European countries are pretty free. And don't take stances such as "spending money is free speech which is sacred so no campaign financing rules". You might get arrested for a Nazi salute though... which, if you think is a bad thing, you haven't been paying attention in history classes nor modern news.
- Thorrez 2y ago
  The US values free speech higher than privacy. The EU values privacy higher than free speech. >Opinions on the right to be forgotten differ greatly between the United States and EU countries. In the United States, accessibility, the right of free speech according to the First Amendment, and the "right to know" are typically favored over removing or increasing difficulty to access truthfully published information regarding individuals and corporations. Although the term "right to be forgotten" is a relatively new idea, the European Court of Justice legally solidified that the "right to be forgotten" is a human right when they ruled against Google in the Costeja case on May 13, 2014.[20] >The European Union has been advocating for the delinkings requested by EU citizens to be implemented by Google not just in European versions of Google (as in google.co.uk, google.fr, etc.), but on google.com and other international subdomains. Regulators want delinkings to be implemented so that the law cannot be circumvented in any way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_be_forgotten#European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_be_forgotten#European...
  - sofixa 2y ago
    Right to be forgotten isn't related to free speech, it is indeed about privacy. Free speech and "right to know" are different things. The second one is about transparency, and is very important... but as you say, the EU draws the border with "your rights stop where others' begin". We have a similar thing in many EU countries where people arrested/on trial still have a right to privacy until conviction, to avoid their names being forever plastered everywhere, with mugshots, based on nothing proven.
MollyRealized 2y ago
> The US has strong free speech protection, stronger than European free speech protection. For this to be said in the current circumstances shows either a political viewpoint or a lack of knowledge.
- fragmede 2y ago
  What's the name of the law in Germany that puts you in jail for Holocaust denial?
- Thorrez 2y ago
  See this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42983898 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42983898 Additionally: * In some European countries newspapers cannot publish the names of people on trial. In the US they can. * In some European countries you cannot take pictures of people in public and publish them. In the US you can.

dmd 2y ago

> The US has strong free speech protection The US literally just told (e.g., [0]) all scientists working for it they are not permitted to publish papers or speak at conferences or travel. What the US "has" is irrelevant when laws are being ignored. [0] https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/revised-and-extended-what-s-happening-inside-nih-and-nsf https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/revised-and-extend...

marcinzm 2y ago
That's an employer telling employees what to do? Google can tell the same thing to it's employees and does. I don't see the relevance to the government telling other entities what to do.
- dmd 2y ago
  The employer is the US federal government, in this case.
  - marcinzm 2y ago
    And employees signed contracts which allow the government to tell them how to do their jobs or fire them. Just like any other employer. Harvard did not.
    - Teever 2y ago
      Sure. But is it a good thing that their employer did this in this situation? Is it a normal thing for the US government to do? Why or why not? Do other government do this? Which ones and for what reasons?
- MattGrommes 2y ago
  The federal government isn't just "an employer", it's an extension of the public will funded with public money and should work toward the public good.
  - marcinzm 2y ago
    The topic is if the federal government is ignoring free speech laws in this specific instance. I'm arguing it's not. As for public good, you'd probably find it depressing what the majority of Americans view as good.

CalRobert 2y ago

Whether the US still has this protection of free speech remains to be seen

saghm 2y ago

> Is there any risk of the government ordering them to take it down? That seems unlikely to me. The US has strong free speech protection, stronger than European free speech protection. In other words, you don't think we have to worry about Congress bringing in university presidents to grill them over political activities against the government's current policies occurring on their campuses? Certainly we wouldn't see any of those whose didn't give testimony that the government liked would end up being forced to resign in the aftermath; we're not in the dark ages anymore like we were in 2023...

Thorrez 2y ago
I hadn't heard of that case before. However, some government officials saying that someone should resign is a bit different from the government actually forcing someone to resign or be fired. The comment I replied to said "What I'm missing from this announcement though is any mention of how they intend to secure this "vault" against the current government.", which I believe is talking about a case where the government orders Harvard to take the info down. If Harvard will delete the data because a few government officials say they should (but don't order them to do so), then I don't see what can be done to secure the vault against the government. E.g. hosting it in Europe won't be any help, because Harvard could just delete it from the European hosting.

sofixa 2y ago

> The US has strong free speech protection, stronger than European free speech protection Citation needed. "European free speech protection" doesn't exist, each country has its own rules and freedoms. Hungary is drastically less free than e.g. France... but overall, as a rule of thumb, unless for you freedom of speech includes freedom to be a Nazi, European countries are pretty free. And don't take stances such as "spending money is free speech which is sacred so no campaign financing rules". You might get arrested for a Nazi salute though... which, if you think is a bad thing, you haven't been paying attention in history classes nor modern news.

Thorrez 2y ago
The US values free speech higher than privacy. The EU values privacy higher than free speech. >Opinions on the right to be forgotten differ greatly between the United States and EU countries. In the United States, accessibility, the right of free speech according to the First Amendment, and the "right to know" are typically favored over removing or increasing difficulty to access truthfully published information regarding individuals and corporations. Although the term "right to be forgotten" is a relatively new idea, the European Court of Justice legally solidified that the "right to be forgotten" is a human right when they ruled against Google in the Costeja case on May 13, 2014.[20] >The European Union has been advocating for the delinkings requested by EU citizens to be implemented by Google not just in European versions of Google (as in google.co.uk, google.fr, etc.), but on google.com and other international subdomains. Regulators want delinkings to be implemented so that the law cannot be circumvented in any way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_be_forgotten#European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_be_forgotten#European...
- sofixa 2y ago
  Right to be forgotten isn't related to free speech, it is indeed about privacy. Free speech and "right to know" are different things. The second one is about transparency, and is very important... but as you say, the EU draws the border with "your rights stop where others' begin". We have a similar thing in many EU countries where people arrested/on trial still have a right to privacy until conviction, to avoid their names being forever plastered everywhere, with mugshots, based on nothing proven.

MollyRealized 2y ago

> The US has strong free speech protection, stronger than European free speech protection. For this to be said in the current circumstances shows either a political viewpoint or a lack of knowledge.

fragmede 2y ago
What's the name of the law in Germany that puts you in jail for Holocaust denial?
Thorrez 2y ago
See this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42983898 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42983898 Additionally: * In some European countries newspapers cannot publish the names of people on trial. In the US they can. * In some European countries you cannot take pictures of people in public and publish them. In the US you can.