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I don't know, if anything the Scala situation seems much worse than the Python situation. The language looks completely different and there is no easy migration

by kokada 2y ago

I don't know, if anything the Scala situation seems much worse than the Python situation. The language looks completely different and there is no easy migration path (not that Python had one, but at least the language was almost the same and you could with some effort write code that worked in both versions). We are in Scala 2.13 and while there are talks about migrating there is no actual plan. Looking at this blog post the situation seems to be more dire than I initially expected. I think we will only end up migrating when the situation becomes unsustainable (libraries stop supporting Scala 2).

adamwk 2y ago
Odersky forcing through major syntax changes for Scala 3 was such an unforced error. It's baffling add new syntax on top of major semantic changes to the type system.
- Pet_Ant 2y ago
  But did it provide a gain in power and soundness? There issues with the 2.x system.
  - merb 2y ago
    Most programming languages have unsound features.
  - lmm 2y ago
    It did, which makes it all the more frustrating that you can't adopt it separately from the syntax and tooling changes.
    - Taikonerd 2y ago
      But the new syntax is optional, right? So you could upgrade and keep the old syntax? (I'm not a Scala dev, so this is just my impression.)
      - lmm 2y ago
        Some of the syntax changes are optional, some of them like the _/* change aren't.
- hawk_ 2y ago
  Stroustrup said "There's two kinds of PLs, ones that people complain about and ones that nobody uses." Odersky made Scala3 become a language that nobody uses and people complain about!
- threeseed 2y ago
  Problem is he’s a full time academic. So he doesn’t care if this amazing feature he’s invented has no IDE support. Or if the Scala tooling ecosystem is so ridiculously poor.
sidkshatriya 2y ago
I don’t use Scala but it will always be better than Python 2/3 because of compile time type checks. If it compiles it should work. In the case of Python 2/3 you could often encounter upgrade issues during runtime !
- adamc 2y ago
  That can happen in Scala as well because of shared binaries, as is reported in this thread.
  - threeseed 2y ago
    It’s a completely different situation compared to Python. With Scala 2.13/Scala 3 they both compile down to an intermediate format called TASTy which allows binary code to be shared. You don’t get the same binary incompatibilities you do with other languages.
  - sidkshatriya 2y ago
    That is why I said it “should” work. There are always some really weird edge cases. My broader point holds true. Scala upgrade is not even close to Python 2/3 debacle
fulafel 2y ago
Python had 2to3 and 3to2.

by kokada 2y ago

adamwk 2y ago

Odersky forcing through major syntax changes for Scala 3 was such an unforced error. It's baffling add new syntax on top of major semantic changes to the type system.

Pet_Ant 2y ago
But did it provide a gain in power and soundness? There issues with the 2.x system.
- merb 2y ago
  Most programming languages have unsound features.
- lmm 2y ago
  It did, which makes it all the more frustrating that you can't adopt it separately from the syntax and tooling changes.
  - Taikonerd 2y ago
    But the new syntax is optional, right? So you could upgrade and keep the old syntax? (I'm not a Scala dev, so this is just my impression.)
    - lmm 2y ago
      Some of the syntax changes are optional, some of them like the _/* change aren't.
hawk_ 2y ago
Stroustrup said "There's two kinds of PLs, ones that people complain about and ones that nobody uses." Odersky made Scala3 become a language that nobody uses and people complain about!
threeseed 2y ago
Problem is he’s a full time academic. So he doesn’t care if this amazing feature he’s invented has no IDE support. Or if the Scala tooling ecosystem is so ridiculously poor.

sidkshatriya 2y ago

I don’t use Scala but it will always be better than Python 2/3 because of compile time type checks. If it compiles it should work. In the case of Python 2/3 you could often encounter upgrade issues during runtime !

adamc 2y ago
That can happen in Scala as well because of shared binaries, as is reported in this thread.
- threeseed 2y ago
  It’s a completely different situation compared to Python. With Scala 2.13/Scala 3 they both compile down to an intermediate format called TASTy which allows binary code to be shared. You don’t get the same binary incompatibilities you do with other languages.
- sidkshatriya 2y ago
  That is why I said it “should” work. There are always some really weird edge cases. My broader point holds true. Scala upgrade is not even close to Python 2/3 debacle

fulafel 2y ago

Python had 2to3 and 3to2.