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> I would be pretty upset if I implemented Cloudflare and it started to inadvertently hurt my sales figures. The problem is that all these Cloudflare forensics

> I would be pretty upset if I implemented Cloudflare and it started to inadvertently hurt my sales figures. The problem is that all these Cloudflare forensics-based throttling and blocking efforts don't hurt sales figures. The number of legitimate users running Arc is a rounding error. Arc browser users often come to Cloudflare without third-party tracking and without cookies, which is weird and therefore suspicious - you look an awful lot like a freshly instantiated headless browser, in contrast to the vast majority of legitimate users who are carrying around a ton of tracking data. And by blocking cookies and ads, you wouldn't even be attributable in most of the stats if they did let you in. It would be like kicking anyone wearing dark sunglasses out of a physical store: sure, burglars are likely to want to hide their eyes. Retail shrink is something like 1.5% of inventory, while blind users are <0.5% of the population. It would violate the ADA (and basic ethics) to prohibit out all blind shoppers, so in the real world we've decided that it's not legal to discriminate on this basis even if it would be a net positive for your financials. The web is a nearly unregulated open ocean, Cloudflare can effectively block anyone for any reason and they don't have much incentive to show compassion to legitimate users that end up as bycatch in their trawl nets.

RobotToaster 2y ago
I wonder if cloudflare blocks like these affect screen reader users, in which case they may violate the ADA.
- dragontamer 2y ago
  And if they did violate the ADA, do you seriously expect this administration's anti-DEI Department of Justice to pursue legal action?
  - decremental 2y ago
    [dead]
  - gosub100 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - Analemma_ 2y ago
      I can find you literally hundreds of posts from people insisting that ADA is nothing but a small-business-killing shakedown, that it's makework for lawyers, that it's doing nothing to help the disabled, and that it's just as bad if not worse than DEI. What makes your claim better than theirs?
      - gosub100 2y ago
        I call your bluff. Do it.
        vscapitalx 2y ago
        https://www.forbes.com/sites/gusalexiou/2023/06/30/website-accessibility-lawsuits-rising-exponentially-in-2023-according-to-latest-data/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/gusalexiou/2023/06/30/website-a... https://www.the215guys.com/blog/ada-lawsuits-targeting-websites-facing-scrutiny/ https://www.the215guys.com/blog/ada-lawsuits-targeting-websi...
        gosub100 2y ago
        the first link had one comment in support of the move, and a single, dissenting (yet reasonable) reply.2nd article had no comments whatsoever. Remember, the claim I'm responding to was "literally hundreds of posts from people insisting that ADA is nothing but a small-business-killing shakedown, that it's makework for lawyers, that it's doing nothing to help the disabled"
      - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
        > What makes your claim better than theirs? Well, for starters it's not so absolute: > it's doing nothing to help the disabled It's obviously doing something for the disabled. Reserved disabled parking spots and wheelchair-accessible building entrances are requirements of the ADA. It seems reasonable to think it "improves people's lives". A whole bunch of contrary opinions are not necessarily reasons for disagreement as much as they are simply disagreement.
  - pc86 2y ago
    Yes because accessibility and DEI are different despite partisans' attempts to make "DEIA" a real thing.
    - dragontamer 2y ago
      Trump's team is rolling back DEIA already. Did you read the executive order? It's not the left calling it DEIA. Its Trump. > Sec. 2. Implementation. (a) The Director of the Office of Management and Budget (OMB), assisted by the Attorney General and the Director of the Office of Personnel Management (OPM), shall coordinate the termination of all discriminatory programs, including illegal DEI and “diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility” (DEIA) mandates, policies, programs, preferences, and activities in the Federal Government, under whatever name they appear. https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/01/ending-radical-and-wasteful-government-dei-programs-and-preferencing/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/01/endi...
      - pc86 2y ago
        Because it's a pretty simple legal maneuver to say "no this EO isn't requiring us to shut down this program because we call it 'DEIA' instead of 'DEI' so it's different." The EO is using the language of the programs to ensure that they're shut down. Accessibility has been around forever. One of the major proponents of it was a Republican nominee for President. It has broad bipartisan support. DEI has been around for 45 minutes and is racism disguised as anti-racism.
    - fsckboy 2y ago
      I'm not expert on this, but it appears that the Dept of Justice rolls DEI and A into one DEIA, which makes some sort of sense since any litigation would be similar. Not sure about other federal agencies https://www.justice.gov/archives/jmd/diversity-equity-inclusion-and-accessibility-deia https://www.justice.gov/archives/jmd/diversity-equity-inclus...
    - TRiG_Ireland 2y ago
      So why is the Trump administration also removing accessibility features from government websites, and firing ASL interpreters?
- samspot 2y ago
  In my experience, screen reader users stick to the mainstream browsers to preserve compatibility. https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey10/ https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey10/
graemep 2y ago
What about all false positives in aggregate? The problem is site owners do not know - it just adds to the number of blocked threats in cloudflare's reassuring emails.
- edelbitter 2y ago
  It is difficult to gauge the size of the Cloudflare effect.. if the usage statistics the site owner is collecting.. are also not collected for those undesirables.
TheRealPomax 2y ago
The number of legitimate users on "not chrome, edge, safari, or firefox" is about 10% of the browser market. I don't know about you, but if I'm running a shop, and the whole point of my website is to make sales, but my front door is preventing 10% of those sales? That door is getting replaced.
- supernovae 2y ago
  If you were running a shop, you would realize that nearly 100% of the fraud is "not chrome, edge, safari, or firefox" It's unfortunate yes but that's what drives the threat signatures
  - crtasm 2y ago
    Why would fraudsters use a browser that's likely to be blocked? They'll be using the standard browsers like (mostly) everyone else. edit: it's noted downthread that automated testing of card details to find valid ones is a reason.
- agoodusername63 2y ago
  Why would you assume that the 10% of non standard browsers are going to buy anything? Demographic is important here. If I was running a shop that sold software for Linux users, sure. If I'm running a store that sells pretty much anything else? I'm not caring.
  - handoflixue 2y ago
    Why would you expect people using non-standard browsers don't buy things? Presumably they still eat food, wear clothing, and enjoy hobbies. I'd think that a non-standard browser also strongly suggests that they're a financially-comfortable middle-class individual, and quite possibly a whale with FAANG income.
    - what 2y ago
      It strongly suggest they’re a neet.
azemetre 2y ago
Something tells me that if you asked the store owner that the poster tried to give money to, they'd be furious at cloudflare for stopping the transaction.
- Liskni_si 2y ago
  Yeah maybe if you somehow managed to email them without their email provider stopping that email from reaching them…

RobotToaster 2y ago

I wonder if cloudflare blocks like these affect screen reader users, in which case they may violate the ADA.

dragontamer 2y ago
And if they did violate the ADA, do you seriously expect this administration's anti-DEI Department of Justice to pursue legal action?
- decremental 2y ago
  [dead]
- gosub100 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - Analemma_ 2y ago
    I can find you literally hundreds of posts from people insisting that ADA is nothing but a small-business-killing shakedown, that it's makework for lawyers, that it's doing nothing to help the disabled, and that it's just as bad if not worse than DEI. What makes your claim better than theirs?
    - gosub100 2y ago
      I call your bluff. Do it.
      - vscapitalx 2y ago
        https://www.forbes.com/sites/gusalexiou/2023/06/30/website-accessibility-lawsuits-rising-exponentially-in-2023-according-to-latest-data/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/gusalexiou/2023/06/30/website-a... https://www.the215guys.com/blog/ada-lawsuits-targeting-websites-facing-scrutiny/ https://www.the215guys.com/blog/ada-lawsuits-targeting-websi...
        gosub100 2y ago
        the first link had one comment in support of the move, and a single, dissenting (yet reasonable) reply.2nd article had no comments whatsoever. Remember, the claim I'm responding to was "literally hundreds of posts from people insisting that ADA is nothing but a small-business-killing shakedown, that it's makework for lawyers, that it's doing nothing to help the disabled"
    - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
      > What makes your claim better than theirs? Well, for starters it's not so absolute: > it's doing nothing to help the disabled It's obviously doing something for the disabled. Reserved disabled parking spots and wheelchair-accessible building entrances are requirements of the ADA. It seems reasonable to think it "improves people's lives". A whole bunch of contrary opinions are not necessarily reasons for disagreement as much as they are simply disagreement.
- pc86 2y ago
  Yes because accessibility and DEI are different despite partisans' attempts to make "DEIA" a real thing.
  - dragontamer 2y ago
    Trump's team is rolling back DEIA already. Did you read the executive order? It's not the left calling it DEIA. Its Trump. > Sec. 2. Implementation. (a) The Director of the Office of Management and Budget (OMB), assisted by the Attorney General and the Director of the Office of Personnel Management (OPM), shall coordinate the termination of all discriminatory programs, including illegal DEI and “diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility” (DEIA) mandates, policies, programs, preferences, and activities in the Federal Government, under whatever name they appear. https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/01/ending-radical-and-wasteful-government-dei-programs-and-preferencing/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/01/endi...
    - pc86 2y ago
      Because it's a pretty simple legal maneuver to say "no this EO isn't requiring us to shut down this program because we call it 'DEIA' instead of 'DEI' so it's different." The EO is using the language of the programs to ensure that they're shut down. Accessibility has been around forever. One of the major proponents of it was a Republican nominee for President. It has broad bipartisan support. DEI has been around for 45 minutes and is racism disguised as anti-racism.
  - fsckboy 2y ago
    I'm not expert on this, but it appears that the Dept of Justice rolls DEI and A into one DEIA, which makes some sort of sense since any litigation would be similar. Not sure about other federal agencies https://www.justice.gov/archives/jmd/diversity-equity-inclusion-and-accessibility-deia https://www.justice.gov/archives/jmd/diversity-equity-inclus...
  - TRiG_Ireland 2y ago
    So why is the Trump administration also removing accessibility features from government websites, and firing ASL interpreters?
samspot 2y ago
In my experience, screen reader users stick to the mainstream browsers to preserve compatibility. https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey10/ https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey10/

graemep 2y ago

What about all false positives in aggregate? The problem is site owners do not know - it just adds to the number of blocked threats in cloudflare's reassuring emails.

edelbitter 2y ago
It is difficult to gauge the size of the Cloudflare effect.. if the usage statistics the site owner is collecting.. are also not collected for those undesirables.

TheRealPomax 2y ago

The number of legitimate users on "not chrome, edge, safari, or firefox" is about 10% of the browser market. I don't know about you, but if I'm running a shop, and the whole point of my website is to make sales, but my front door is preventing 10% of those sales? That door is getting replaced.

supernovae 2y ago
If you were running a shop, you would realize that nearly 100% of the fraud is "not chrome, edge, safari, or firefox" It's unfortunate yes but that's what drives the threat signatures
- crtasm 2y ago
  Why would fraudsters use a browser that's likely to be blocked? They'll be using the standard browsers like (mostly) everyone else. edit: it's noted downthread that automated testing of card details to find valid ones is a reason.
agoodusername63 2y ago
Why would you assume that the 10% of non standard browsers are going to buy anything? Demographic is important here. If I was running a shop that sold software for Linux users, sure. If I'm running a store that sells pretty much anything else? I'm not caring.
- handoflixue 2y ago
  Why would you expect people using non-standard browsers don't buy things? Presumably they still eat food, wear clothing, and enjoy hobbies. I'd think that a non-standard browser also strongly suggests that they're a financially-comfortable middle-class individual, and quite possibly a whale with FAANG income.
  - what 2y ago
    It strongly suggest they’re a neet.

azemetre 2y ago

Something tells me that if you asked the store owner that the poster tried to give money to, they'd be furious at cloudflare for stopping the transaction.

Liskni_si 2y ago
Yeah maybe if you somehow managed to email them without their email provider stopping that email from reaching them…