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I'm always saddened when I see an open source project's page say something like "Join us on Discord!" I can understand an open source project being on GitHub,

by neilv 2y ago

I'm always saddened when I see an open source project's page say something like "Join us on Discord!" I can understand an open source project being on GitHub, since, at one point, they were a pretty warm-fuzzy place, and so attracted a lot of open source projects, before they sold out to Microsoft. But I really don't know how so many open source projects looked at Discord, early on, and thought that's a good idea. AFAICT, Discord is pretty antithetical to open source and, especially, libre software.

stackskipton 2y ago
Because there isn't a good replacement in open source software. Matrix and others are pretty normie hostile. I help run a few Discord servers and due to financials, I'm always worried about extremely hostile actions by them to make money. My list of things good open source replacement would have: Decentralized chat servers with history Run a optional centralized login service so users have one login Optional centralized service knows what servers the user is a member of so any client they login to will automatically know which servers they are member of. Centralized Mobile Notification service Federation is absolutely not a requirement or a way around this.
- delta_p_delta_x 2y ago
  > others are pretty normie hostile This is a fairly reasonable generalisation to make about the vast majority of open-source software. 'Normie-hostile'.
- kurisufag 2y ago
  i've semi-successfully moved a university linux users group onto matrix fwiw, with most people (regular discord users) happy using element's desktop/mobile UI. it's as close to a discord-y experience as you're likely to get.
  - stackskipton 2y ago
    University Linux User Group I would say is already not normies. When I say normie, they are not posting on Hacker News and never heard of Y Combinator ;) They are your non tech friends and a lot of open source needs to interact with them where they are. Where they are is Discord.
- mdaniel 2y ago
  > Because there isn't a good replacement in open source software https://github.com/zulip/zulip/blob/9.4/LICENSE https://github.com/zulip/zulip/blob/9.4/LICENSE (Apache 2) and if you mean "good [hosted] replacement" https://zulip.com/for/open-source/ https://zulip.com/for/open-source/ It, of course, does not speak to your decentralized wishlist but I'm sure they'd welcome an issue describing your goals
  - s2l 2y ago
    I really want to use zulip but last I checked they charged for push notifications. Without it, my group lost interest in using it due to missed messages. I saw a post about webpush a day ago. Not sure if anything has changed for zulip in that area.
    - alya 2y ago
      If you are using Zulip for an open-source project or a community, you are likely eligible for our free Community plan, which includes push notifications. https://zulip.com/help/self-hosted-billing#free-community-plan https://zulip.com/help/self-hosted-billing#free-community-pl... We charge businesses for our push notifications service because we need folks using our 100% open-source product to run their business to help pay the cost of developing it.
- unosama 2y ago
  Things become less normie hostile as more people adopt it. Two decades ago reddit was normie hostile.
  - stackskipton 2y ago
    Reddit was never normie hostile. It may have not been mainstream but hostile to your average user, no. You logged in with a browser like Facebook, you could subscribe or not to any subreddit you wish, those subscriptions would show up on any browser/mobile app you logged in on, everything was stored for you server side. Centralization is what most normal people expect. They don't want to futz around with remember things or having to setup the clients every time they switch. They want it all there every time on every device.
- foresto 2y ago
  > Matrix and others are pretty normie hostile. Judging by the design choices I've seen in Matrix 2.0 beta clients, this seems to be changing. A few important fixes and a lot of UI simplification are falling into place. I would not be surprised if I could get my family members using it once these are all integrated in fully functional clients. Here's hoping.
hnlmorg 2y ago
I agree with you in principle but in practice there aren’t really any good options. You either have something relatively niche that’s open but people are unlikely to have installed and is often non-trivial for project maintainers to set up and maintain. Or you have something that solves those concerns but is proprietary and sometimes even actively hostile to 3rd parties. It feels like the whole messaging ecosystem has taken several steps backwards over the last 20 years.
- mdaniel 2y ago
  I'll point out that everything is relatively niche until it becomes popular, and then it's "well, what else would you use?!" and that's how Discord even became a thing that anyone would mention. Or this weird thing named Slack - pfft, who would use a chat named that
  - hnlmorg 2y ago
    Sure. But it’s not a project maintainers job to make an unrelated communications tool popular. Plus there’s also the problem of finite time and proprietary tools just being more convenient.
    - igor47 2y ago
      Freedom. Convenience. Is there a tension between those?
- DrillShopper 2y ago
  WebChat + IRC server works just fine, only requires a browser for somebody to drive-by use, and allows more serious/heavy users to use whatever client they want. Install a logging package on the IRC server to make logs available publicly and searchable (or you can just have a bot user that does this if you're using an IRC server that someone else is hosting). This was the norm in the late-90s through about 2010 and then suddenly it wasn't good enough.
  - hnlmorg 2y ago
spacechild1 2y ago
I'm part of an open source project with a self-hosted Discourse forum. It's just better in every aspect. (Discourse even has built-in DMs and chat.) I find it incredibly sad that people generally have moved away from open forums to proprietory silos like Discord or FB groups.

by neilv 2y ago

stackskipton 2y ago

Because there isn't a good replacement in open source software. Matrix and others are pretty normie hostile. I help run a few Discord servers and due to financials, I'm always worried about extremely hostile actions by them to make money. My list of things good open source replacement would have: Decentralized chat servers with history Run a optional centralized login service so users have one login Optional centralized service knows what servers the user is a member of so any client they login to will automatically know which servers they are member of. Centralized Mobile Notification service Federation is absolutely not a requirement or a way around this.

delta_p_delta_x 2y ago
> others are pretty normie hostile This is a fairly reasonable generalisation to make about the vast majority of open-source software. 'Normie-hostile'.
kurisufag 2y ago
i've semi-successfully moved a university linux users group onto matrix fwiw, with most people (regular discord users) happy using element's desktop/mobile UI. it's as close to a discord-y experience as you're likely to get.
- stackskipton 2y ago
  University Linux User Group I would say is already not normies. When I say normie, they are not posting on Hacker News and never heard of Y Combinator ;) They are your non tech friends and a lot of open source needs to interact with them where they are. Where they are is Discord.
mdaniel 2y ago
> Because there isn't a good replacement in open source software https://github.com/zulip/zulip/blob/9.4/LICENSE https://github.com/zulip/zulip/blob/9.4/LICENSE (Apache 2) and if you mean "good [hosted] replacement" https://zulip.com/for/open-source/ https://zulip.com/for/open-source/ It, of course, does not speak to your decentralized wishlist but I'm sure they'd welcome an issue describing your goals
- s2l 2y ago
  I really want to use zulip but last I checked they charged for push notifications. Without it, my group lost interest in using it due to missed messages. I saw a post about webpush a day ago. Not sure if anything has changed for zulip in that area.
  - alya 2y ago
    If you are using Zulip for an open-source project or a community, you are likely eligible for our free Community plan, which includes push notifications. https://zulip.com/help/self-hosted-billing#free-community-plan https://zulip.com/help/self-hosted-billing#free-community-pl... We charge businesses for our push notifications service because we need folks using our 100% open-source product to run their business to help pay the cost of developing it.
unosama 2y ago
Things become less normie hostile as more people adopt it. Two decades ago reddit was normie hostile.
- stackskipton 2y ago
  Reddit was never normie hostile. It may have not been mainstream but hostile to your average user, no. You logged in with a browser like Facebook, you could subscribe or not to any subreddit you wish, those subscriptions would show up on any browser/mobile app you logged in on, everything was stored for you server side. Centralization is what most normal people expect. They don't want to futz around with remember things or having to setup the clients every time they switch. They want it all there every time on every device.
foresto 2y ago
> Matrix and others are pretty normie hostile. Judging by the design choices I've seen in Matrix 2.0 beta clients, this seems to be changing. A few important fixes and a lot of UI simplification are falling into place. I would not be surprised if I could get my family members using it once these are all integrated in fully functional clients. Here's hoping.

hnlmorg 2y ago

I agree with you in principle but in practice there aren’t really any good options. You either have something relatively niche that’s open but people are unlikely to have installed and is often non-trivial for project maintainers to set up and maintain. Or you have something that solves those concerns but is proprietary and sometimes even actively hostile to 3rd parties. It feels like the whole messaging ecosystem has taken several steps backwards over the last 20 years.

mdaniel 2y ago
I'll point out that everything is relatively niche until it becomes popular, and then it's "well, what else would you use?!" and that's how Discord even became a thing that anyone would mention. Or this weird thing named Slack - pfft, who would use a chat named that
- hnlmorg 2y ago
  Sure. But it’s not a project maintainers job to make an unrelated communications tool popular. Plus there’s also the problem of finite time and proprietary tools just being more convenient.
  - igor47 2y ago
    Freedom. Convenience. Is there a tension between those?
DrillShopper 2y ago
WebChat + IRC server works just fine, only requires a browser for somebody to drive-by use, and allows more serious/heavy users to use whatever client they want. Install a logging package on the IRC server to make logs available publicly and searchable (or you can just have a bot user that does this if you're using an IRC server that someone else is hosting). This was the norm in the late-90s through about 2010 and then suddenly it wasn't good enough.
- hnlmorg 2y ago

spacechild1 2y ago

I'm part of an open source project with a self-hosted Discourse forum. It's just better in every aspect. (Discourse even has built-in DMs and chat.) I find it incredibly sad that people generally have moved away from open forums to proprietory silos like Discord or FB groups.