5 ms·

Gumroad CEO is no longer hiring junior/mid-level software engineers due to AI

42 points by colesantiago 2y ago

that_guy_iain 2y ago
If I was doing anything I would be hiring more junior/mid-level since they could be supported more with AI. And reducing the amount of seniors I hired.
franktankbank 2y ago
Desperate times signals.
jonathanrmumm 2y ago
There has never been a more fertile environment for motivated learners to do more with less, and yet we still have a bias as an industry to seek the more experienced hand versus the energetic one.
- edmundsauto 2y ago
  As the pure value of energy decreases, the value of judgement and taste increases.
  - jonathanrmumm 2y ago
    Judgement and taste increases with energy spent—and from a company's perspective, usually you want it to grow in line with your own.
    - svnt 2y ago
      This is the real problem, possibly: the dev seniority pipeline dies without junior devs learning. Also possibly, good would-be-junior-devs find something more productive to do.
    - edmundsauto 2y ago
      They can, if people are growing. So many mid level engineers at my company spend their energy on the same year of experience.
- svnt 2y ago
  The one thing they had was enthusiasm, but even the most committed and energetic junior hire cannot touch the productivity of AI on most of the work junior software devs are handed. People are focused on absolute llm accuracy, but time-to-90%-there for AI vs junior dev is seconds to hours/days.
  - jonathanrmumm 2y ago
    - Linus Torvalds wrote Linux at 21 - Steve Wozniak built Apple I at 25 - Palmer Luckey created Oculus VR at 20 - Vitalik Buterin designed Ethereum at 19 - Mark Zuckerberg coded Facebook at 19
    - svnt 2y ago
      And not one of them was hired as a junior dev.
      - jonathanrmumm 2y ago
        They developed software as "juniors" in companies—we just don't belittle them by calling them "junior devs".
        svnt 2y ago
        Bringing in No True Scotsman doesn’t save the argument. These people were exceptional outcomes, where luck and hubris met sufficient competency. You cannot argue the general case from exceptions.
        jonathanrmumm 2y ago
        If we view the person we are looking to hire as a "junior dev", a "junior dev" is what you will get. But if you seek a young, competent software dev—one you might find.
AtlasBarfed 2y ago
When will AI replace CEOs? It's all just a bunch of rehashed corpospeak language anyway.
- ndrake 2y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42933256 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42933256
muglug 2y ago
[Company nobody's talked about in over a decade] "WE'RE GOING ALL IN ON AI"
papichulo2023 2y ago
Isnt 200k a ridiculous small "codebase"?
- spamizbad 2y ago
  Gotta give them credit actually: A company that's been around for a 14 years has managed to keep their codebase small.
- that_guy_iain 2y ago
  I've worked at companies that had been in operation for 4 years that had multiple developers work on it and was only at 40-50k. My current project is at about 200k. One company had a monolith with 20-30 people working on it 360k with a few microservices to start replacing monolith features being between 5-20k each. It's not a ridiculous small code base, it's about average for a lot of small to medium size companies.
  - papichulo2023 2y ago
    Just to be sure, are you talking about tokens or LOC? I've never calculated the tokens for the codebases I work with but usually a 2k token output is fairly short one, like a small sized file on your average PL. So I am extrapolating 200k to 200 files.
    - that_guy_iain 2y ago
      LOC. I may have got context wrong. Oops.
worksonmine 2y ago
And who's going to replace the seniors when they retire? Not his problem I guess.
- rcarmo 2y ago
  It isn’t as if his code is written in COBOL, right? (That is actually a very serious problem in quite a few banks)
  - worksonmine 2y ago
    My point is that if juniors aren't getting hired they never evolve to become seniors.
    - rcarmo 2y ago
      As long as they keep to the tall grass and avoid staff predators they should be OK.
      - worksonmine 2y ago
        Since you seem to like metaphors maybe this helps you understand my point: If they stop fertilizing there won't be any grass to harvest. To make myself even clearer: They're (and you I guess) assuming other companies will hire and train the juniors for them, but it's short-sighted. If everyone did it how are they going to learn?
mushufasa 2y ago
To be fair, this is a small software firm that famously runs lean, and has been outsourcing junior-level work to contractors for a while. See: "no meetings, no deadlines, no fulltime employees" https://sahillavingia.com/work https://sahillavingia.com/work I can totally see AI-assisted code editors being more effective than back-and-forth with a contractor to define a job
krzyzanowskim 2y ago
that's great. Amazing. Does it mean Gumroad will drop its high prices now when it no longer needs to pay to humans? Because that's what actually be interesting news. "How do you know someone's AI hypeman? Don't worry, they'll tell you"
- netdevphoenix 2y ago
  > Does it mean Gumroad will drop its high prices now when it no longer needs to pay to humans? Why would they give that money away rather than keeping it as profits?
  - acaloiar 2y ago
    It's not an unreasonable question. Though when reworded, it sounds less palatable if you have people-oriented business morals. "Why would they delight their customers when they can delight themselves?" I like to do right by customers, and if we can both win, it's better than just me winning. Customers know when they're not winning, which decreases goodwill and your business' future prospects.
- kamranjon 2y ago
  I’m curious, why do people use gumroad instead of just starting a Shopify store?
  - omnimus 2y ago
    Gumroad is completely different service. Its merchant of record so it resells stuff for you and is liable for all the tax troubles. But if you modify it to why not use paddle.com or polar.sh? Then i actually dont know.
    - kamranjon 2y ago
      Do you have any more info about what tax troubles it resolves to use gumroad instead of Shopify? I’m just curious - I run a Shopify store but have never really felt the tax situation was overly complex and assumed I’d have a similar tax process when using a service like gumroad.
bitzun 2y ago
The only creator I’m aware of on gumroad is humorous avowed racist and antisemite turned sketchy advice guy Sam Hyde.
awwstn 2y ago
The way he talks about Deep Research (which came out this week) as a core part of the workflow is the clearest tell that this is engagement bait. "No longer hiring junior or even mid-level software engineers"...as of what, 4 days ago? Gumroad famously has no full-time employees and a tiny team. So he went from not hiring junior engineers, to using AI and also not hiring junior engineers.
- mazmanr 2y ago
  May be referring to Gemini deep research, which was released in December 2024
  - jeanlucas 2y ago
    ... doesn't really change it
- flatngc5195 2y ago
  Most of his twitter posting is engagement bait, lol (meaning I wouldn’t read anything into this tweet, like, at all)
cratermoon 2y ago
So who is going to replace the senior engineers as they move on? https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Ioi7DPTHG6A https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Ioi7DPTHG6A
layer8 2y ago
> It won’t be long until AI will be writing all the code for Helper, Flexile, and Gumroad. My guess is by the end of 2026. It would be a reason for me to not rely on their code, for risk of it becoming unmaintainable.
vichle 2y ago
I wonder what happens when we run out of senior engineers.
- nthingtohide 2y ago
  The treadmill needs to be there. From junior to senior to staff to principal and so on. Agreed, all my previously written code is sitting some bankrupt startup's github which will never see the light of day but those years have made me what I am today.
paxys 2y ago
Until recently layoffs, hiring freezes and stalled growth used to be a signal for investors to dump the company's stock. Now CEOs instead say "we are replacing engineers with AI" and the stock price shoots up. Quite a grift we have going on.
Havoc 2y ago
Feels a bit premature. None of the tech is at „shove entire codebase into context and useful changes come out“ yet.
- falcor84 2y ago
  I found that Windsurf's approach of automatically navigating a codebase is very close to that. But if you really need everything to be in the context at once, Gemini 2 is pretty much there already, except for maybe the largest codebases.
Ajunne 2y ago
Absolutely no way this can go wrong of course. Sometimes I wonder if we are the last generation that can still code by hand, and if more companies start to implement the same hiring rules as this guy, soon there will be no more junior devs since nobody can get a job, so give it 10 years and the amount of senior devs will be a finite resource that will slowly die out.
- Mainsail 2y ago
  Can someone help me better understand the ultimate goal here? I'm thinking through the AI influence and how it would replace the engineers at my company and fail to see it. However, that is likely just pure ignorance on my part and I'm likely just missing the obvious. Say someone from the business side wants an external Api implemented into some ingestion pipeline. What would this look like without engineers? For the record, this is an honest question
  - omnimus 2y ago
    Nobody knows. But the industry is very hungry for new revolutionary tech. So it doesnt matter.
  - bigtex 2y ago
    I guess a new industry of "prompt engineers" comes to fruition that is just a middle man between the business and the AI. Because we know for 100% certainty that zero executives are going to spend the time to interface with these chat prompts to build the ingestion pipeline. The prompt engineers will just be what we called application developers.
aynyc 2y ago
You know what's next right? Gumroad is longer paying content creator due to AI.
agentultra 2y ago
It's not AI replacing your jobs, it's people who have the agency to do that. This is a choice. By a person. It's not because technology and, "oh well, what can you do?" As a customer of Gumroad I'd be cautious about trusting such a system.
Hasu 2y ago
As a senior+ engineer, I have no interest in working for a company that doesn't hire junior or midlevel engineers. Mentoring the next generation is not only one of the most rewarding parts of my career, it also levels me up. The US tech industry is committing slow suicide.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- toastercat 2y ago
  I think this is the biggest mistake of not hiring Juniors/Mid-Level. All Senior Engineers were at one point Junior/Mid-Level who had other more Senior Engineers to learn from. :) That said, every company is different -- maybe it works for Gum Road.
xnx 2y ago
Seems like the CEO is admitting that their tech moat is smaller than ever. Sounds like a good chance for someone to undercut their fees.
- omnimus 2y ago
  Their competition already costs half or less. So who knows whats their moat.
  - xnx 2y ago
    Unfortunately, it's probably name recognition from stealing people's attention with marketing stunts like this.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
isgb 2y ago
A few of our mid-level engineers started sending in PRs with worse than usual code in the last few months. It all compiles, but: - There's a bunch of missing edge cases and requirements (details that don't end up on tickets but have been discussed) - Sometimes we see completely useless codepaths. If statements and function calls that don't lead anywhere, or don't need to be called. - We follow a few very specific patterns for code safety reasons and suddenly it looka like those are being completely disregarded. - Our integration tests started being super flaky. After several one-on-ones with them, we realized they were using some AI tool. No clue which one. I know that these tools are going to get better, but I fear that junior/mid-level developers are going to handicap their development if they use them like they do now. Code quality also suffers. I'm also afraid that in the short to medium term codebases are going to get _a lot worse_ introducing some very expensive tech debt. On the bright side, I know now that I don't want to work at Gumroad. I already spend a huge amount time reviewing PRs. I don't want to waste even more because someone didn't prompt an AI accurately enough. What a waste of time and resources.
- nairb774 2y ago
  The quality of a PR is a reflection of the author not the tools the author uses. The last thing an engineer should do before sending out a PR is to review it themselves. A PR is a work product with their name on it, and is a reflection of their ability. This was true before LLM tools, and should be true after.
  - Anonbrit 2y ago
    The trouble with AI and junior engineers is that they tend not to have the skills to tell what is good or bad. It used to be the same problem with code taken from stack overflow with no understanding. It's surprisingly hard to reliably catch either issue in code review. Indeed it's hard to do code review that catches the majority of any class of problem
  - isgb 2y ago
    I don't have any evidence for it, but I feel that watching someone (or something) perform a task has less pedagogical value that performing that task oneself. Same for attention, it's easier let your mind wander if you're e.g. taking the back seat while you're pair programming. AI tools also don't really "reason", do they? Even if you use a reasoning model, they perform the most statistically likely steps with the context and instructions that they're provided, so you lose that "deliberateness" that enables you to best understand the problem that you're solving. > The last thing an engineer should do before sending out a PR is to review it themselves. A PR is a work product with their name on it, and is a reflection of their ability. Right, but your understanding of a PR that you're reviewing is different when you review your own work vs. when you review someone else's, right? For me personally, I have to expend more effort reviewing someone else's work. If you can see how all of this adds up, I hope you understand how this leads to AI being more of a handicap than a tool.
ckocagil 2y ago
All the "AI software engineer" hype is about one thing: suppressing developer wages. Steve Jobs used to do this covertly, to some extent, with his "no cold call" anti-poaching agreements. It's a multi-prong attack. One angle is the interest rates and mass layoffs. Another angle is AI. There are more ridiculous ones, such as this "study" that claims 10% of devs do literally no work: https://x.com/yegordb/status/1859290734257635439 https://x.com/yegordb/status/1859290734257635439 - I expect many such studies to be conducted and generously funded by the industry in the coming years. The big irony is how all this talk will lead to a decrease in the software engineer supply. Why would anyone choose a career that's about to die?
moribvndvs 2y ago
My father was a machinist for 25 years, then went into education for trade skills programs. One thing he tirelessly hit on with anyone who would listen was the mid to long term impact of the erosion of manufacturing and trade skills in America. This erosion was due in part to economics, raising kids to eschew blue collar jobs, and finally automation. Indeed, one of his later projects while still a machinist at Eveready Battery was working on automated production lines. His point relating to automation, other than the fact that not everything can or necessarily needs to be automated, was that automation still requires skilled labor, and in his experience, abandoning the next generation of workers results in a crisis of competency and ingenuity. Attrition of a workforce to install, maintain, improve, and integrate machines is a recipe for disaster down the line. Attrition of experts in systems and processes means we will have trouble innovating and reacting to changes in the world, and increases our reliance on black boxes– which provide the same capabilities to your competitors, by the way– and the jackals that sell them to us. My father was not opposed to automation; in fact, he appreciated that it sometimes made his job safer, or more productive, or less strenuous. However, he watched delusional and myopic managers with dollar signs floating in their eyes chasing their tails relentlessly for more and more automation with fewer and fewer people with the knowledge, skill, and responsibility to clean up their constant messes and keep the thing running. No one gives a shit about Gumroad, but I fear similar problems in this industry at large. We have entered a time when we all feed from the same exorbitantly expensive, increasingly less nutritious, thin, gray gruel and will be fucked when the tap it comes from clogs or gets shut off.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- franktankbank 2y ago
  I think its a risk with any skillful industry. I heard the same comment in Experimental High Energy Physics. A top dog (for lack of better word) at CERN advocated for automating all of the effort to do the statistical analysis across all the different new particle searches. It did not come to be and at least I heard from my advisor that it would result in too many Physicists not really knowing their own craft.

42 points by colesantiago 2y ago

If I was doing anything I would be hiring more junior/mid-level since they could be supported more with AI. And reducing the amount of seniors I hired.

franktankbank 2y ago

Desperate times signals.

jonathanrmumm 2y ago

There has never been a more fertile environment for motivated learners to do more with less, and yet we still have a bias as an industry to seek the more experienced hand versus the energetic one.

edmundsauto 2y ago
As the pure value of energy decreases, the value of judgement and taste increases.
- jonathanrmumm 2y ago
  Judgement and taste increases with energy spent—and from a company's perspective, usually you want it to grow in line with your own.
  - svnt 2y ago
    This is the real problem, possibly: the dev seniority pipeline dies without junior devs learning. Also possibly, good would-be-junior-devs find something more productive to do.
  - edmundsauto 2y ago
    They can, if people are growing. So many mid level engineers at my company spend their energy on the same year of experience.
svnt 2y ago
The one thing they had was enthusiasm, but even the most committed and energetic junior hire cannot touch the productivity of AI on most of the work junior software devs are handed. People are focused on absolute llm accuracy, but time-to-90%-there for AI vs junior dev is seconds to hours/days.
- jonathanrmumm 2y ago
  - Linus Torvalds wrote Linux at 21 - Steve Wozniak built Apple I at 25 - Palmer Luckey created Oculus VR at 20 - Vitalik Buterin designed Ethereum at 19 - Mark Zuckerberg coded Facebook at 19
  - svnt 2y ago
    And not one of them was hired as a junior dev.
    - jonathanrmumm 2y ago
      They developed software as "juniors" in companies—we just don't belittle them by calling them "junior devs".
      - svnt 2y ago
        Bringing in No True Scotsman doesn’t save the argument. These people were exceptional outcomes, where luck and hubris met sufficient competency. You cannot argue the general case from exceptions.
        jonathanrmumm 2y ago
        If we view the person we are looking to hire as a "junior dev", a "junior dev" is what you will get. But if you seek a young, competent software dev—one you might find.

AtlasBarfed 2y ago

When will AI replace CEOs? It's all just a bunch of rehashed corpospeak language anyway.

ndrake 2y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42933256 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42933256

muglug 2y ago

[Company nobody's talked about in over a decade] "WE'RE GOING ALL IN ON AI"

papichulo2023 2y ago

Isnt 200k a ridiculous small "codebase"?

spamizbad 2y ago
Gotta give them credit actually: A company that's been around for a 14 years has managed to keep their codebase small.
that_guy_iain 2y ago
I've worked at companies that had been in operation for 4 years that had multiple developers work on it and was only at 40-50k. My current project is at about 200k. One company had a monolith with 20-30 people working on it 360k with a few microservices to start replacing monolith features being between 5-20k each. It's not a ridiculous small code base, it's about average for a lot of small to medium size companies.
- papichulo2023 2y ago
  Just to be sure, are you talking about tokens or LOC? I've never calculated the tokens for the codebases I work with but usually a 2k token output is fairly short one, like a small sized file on your average PL. So I am extrapolating 200k to 200 files.
  - that_guy_iain 2y ago
    LOC. I may have got context wrong. Oops.

worksonmine 2y ago

And who's going to replace the seniors when they retire? Not his problem I guess.

rcarmo 2y ago
It isn’t as if his code is written in COBOL, right? (That is actually a very serious problem in quite a few banks)
- worksonmine 2y ago
  My point is that if juniors aren't getting hired they never evolve to become seniors.
  - rcarmo 2y ago
    As long as they keep to the tall grass and avoid staff predators they should be OK.
    - worksonmine 2y ago
      Since you seem to like metaphors maybe this helps you understand my point: If they stop fertilizing there won't be any grass to harvest. To make myself even clearer: They're (and you I guess) assuming other companies will hire and train the juniors for them, but it's short-sighted. If everyone did it how are they going to learn?

mushufasa 2y ago

To be fair, this is a small software firm that famously runs lean, and has been outsourcing junior-level work to contractors for a while. See: "no meetings, no deadlines, no fulltime employees" https://sahillavingia.com/work https://sahillavingia.com/work I can totally see AI-assisted code editors being more effective than back-and-forth with a contractor to define a job

krzyzanowskim 2y ago

that's great. Amazing. Does it mean Gumroad will drop its high prices now when it no longer needs to pay to humans? Because that's what actually be interesting news. "How do you know someone's AI hypeman? Don't worry, they'll tell you"

netdevphoenix 2y ago
> Does it mean Gumroad will drop its high prices now when it no longer needs to pay to humans? Why would they give that money away rather than keeping it as profits?
- acaloiar 2y ago
  It's not an unreasonable question. Though when reworded, it sounds less palatable if you have people-oriented business morals. "Why would they delight their customers when they can delight themselves?" I like to do right by customers, and if we can both win, it's better than just me winning. Customers know when they're not winning, which decreases goodwill and your business' future prospects.
kamranjon 2y ago
I’m curious, why do people use gumroad instead of just starting a Shopify store?
- omnimus 2y ago
  Gumroad is completely different service. Its merchant of record so it resells stuff for you and is liable for all the tax troubles. But if you modify it to why not use paddle.com or polar.sh? Then i actually dont know.
  - kamranjon 2y ago
    Do you have any more info about what tax troubles it resolves to use gumroad instead of Shopify? I’m just curious - I run a Shopify store but have never really felt the tax situation was overly complex and assumed I’d have a similar tax process when using a service like gumroad.

bitzun 2y ago

The only creator I’m aware of on gumroad is humorous avowed racist and antisemite turned sketchy advice guy Sam Hyde.

awwstn 2y ago

The way he talks about Deep Research (which came out this week) as a core part of the workflow is the clearest tell that this is engagement bait. "No longer hiring junior or even mid-level software engineers"...as of what, 4 days ago? Gumroad famously has no full-time employees and a tiny team. So he went from not hiring junior engineers, to using AI and also not hiring junior engineers.

mazmanr 2y ago
May be referring to Gemini deep research, which was released in December 2024
- jeanlucas 2y ago
  ... doesn't really change it
flatngc5195 2y ago
Most of his twitter posting is engagement bait, lol (meaning I wouldn’t read anything into this tweet, like, at all)

cratermoon 2y ago

So who is going to replace the senior engineers as they move on? https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Ioi7DPTHG6A https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Ioi7DPTHG6A

layer8 2y ago

> It won’t be long until AI will be writing all the code for Helper, Flexile, and Gumroad. My guess is by the end of 2026. It would be a reason for me to not rely on their code, for risk of it becoming unmaintainable.

vichle 2y ago

I wonder what happens when we run out of senior engineers.

nthingtohide 2y ago
The treadmill needs to be there. From junior to senior to staff to principal and so on. Agreed, all my previously written code is sitting some bankrupt startup's github which will never see the light of day but those years have made me what I am today.

paxys 2y ago

Until recently layoffs, hiring freezes and stalled growth used to be a signal for investors to dump the company's stock. Now CEOs instead say "we are replacing engineers with AI" and the stock price shoots up. Quite a grift we have going on.

Havoc 2y ago

Feels a bit premature. None of the tech is at „shove entire codebase into context and useful changes come out“ yet.

falcor84 2y ago
I found that Windsurf's approach of automatically navigating a codebase is very close to that. But if you really need everything to be in the context at once, Gemini 2 is pretty much there already, except for maybe the largest codebases.

Ajunne 2y ago

Absolutely no way this can go wrong of course. Sometimes I wonder if we are the last generation that can still code by hand, and if more companies start to implement the same hiring rules as this guy, soon there will be no more junior devs since nobody can get a job, so give it 10 years and the amount of senior devs will be a finite resource that will slowly die out.

Mainsail 2y ago
Can someone help me better understand the ultimate goal here? I'm thinking through the AI influence and how it would replace the engineers at my company and fail to see it. However, that is likely just pure ignorance on my part and I'm likely just missing the obvious. Say someone from the business side wants an external Api implemented into some ingestion pipeline. What would this look like without engineers? For the record, this is an honest question
- omnimus 2y ago
  Nobody knows. But the industry is very hungry for new revolutionary tech. So it doesnt matter.
- bigtex 2y ago
  I guess a new industry of "prompt engineers" comes to fruition that is just a middle man between the business and the AI. Because we know for 100% certainty that zero executives are going to spend the time to interface with these chat prompts to build the ingestion pipeline. The prompt engineers will just be what we called application developers.

aynyc 2y ago

You know what's next right? Gumroad is longer paying content creator due to AI.

agentultra 2y ago

It's not AI replacing your jobs, it's people who have the agency to do that. This is a choice. By a person. It's not because technology and, "oh well, what can you do?" As a customer of Gumroad I'd be cautious about trusting such a system.

Hasu 2y ago

As a senior+ engineer, I have no interest in working for a company that doesn't hire junior or midlevel engineers. Mentoring the next generation is not only one of the most rewarding parts of my career, it also levels me up. The US tech industry is committing slow suicide.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
toastercat 2y ago
I think this is the biggest mistake of not hiring Juniors/Mid-Level. All Senior Engineers were at one point Junior/Mid-Level who had other more Senior Engineers to learn from. :) That said, every company is different -- maybe it works for Gum Road.

xnx 2y ago

Seems like the CEO is admitting that their tech moat is smaller than ever. Sounds like a good chance for someone to undercut their fees.

omnimus 2y ago
Their competition already costs half or less. So who knows whats their moat.
- xnx 2y ago
  Unfortunately, it's probably name recognition from stealing people's attention with marketing stunts like this.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

isgb 2y ago

A few of our mid-level engineers started sending in PRs with worse than usual code in the last few months. It all compiles, but: - There's a bunch of missing edge cases and requirements (details that don't end up on tickets but have been discussed) - Sometimes we see completely useless codepaths. If statements and function calls that don't lead anywhere, or don't need to be called. - We follow a few very specific patterns for code safety reasons and suddenly it looka like those are being completely disregarded. - Our integration tests started being super flaky. After several one-on-ones with them, we realized they were using some AI tool. No clue which one. I know that these tools are going to get better, but I fear that junior/mid-level developers are going to handicap their development if they use them like they do now. Code quality also suffers. I'm also afraid that in the short to medium term codebases are going to get _a lot worse_ introducing some very expensive tech debt. On the bright side, I know now that I don't want to work at Gumroad. I already spend a huge amount time reviewing PRs. I don't want to waste even more because someone didn't prompt an AI accurately enough. What a waste of time and resources.

nairb774 2y ago
The quality of a PR is a reflection of the author not the tools the author uses. The last thing an engineer should do before sending out a PR is to review it themselves. A PR is a work product with their name on it, and is a reflection of their ability. This was true before LLM tools, and should be true after.
- Anonbrit 2y ago
  The trouble with AI and junior engineers is that they tend not to have the skills to tell what is good or bad. It used to be the same problem with code taken from stack overflow with no understanding. It's surprisingly hard to reliably catch either issue in code review. Indeed it's hard to do code review that catches the majority of any class of problem
- isgb 2y ago
  I don't have any evidence for it, but I feel that watching someone (or something) perform a task has less pedagogical value that performing that task oneself. Same for attention, it's easier let your mind wander if you're e.g. taking the back seat while you're pair programming. AI tools also don't really "reason", do they? Even if you use a reasoning model, they perform the most statistically likely steps with the context and instructions that they're provided, so you lose that "deliberateness" that enables you to best understand the problem that you're solving. > The last thing an engineer should do before sending out a PR is to review it themselves. A PR is a work product with their name on it, and is a reflection of their ability. Right, but your understanding of a PR that you're reviewing is different when you review your own work vs. when you review someone else's, right? For me personally, I have to expend more effort reviewing someone else's work. If you can see how all of this adds up, I hope you understand how this leads to AI being more of a handicap than a tool.

ckocagil 2y ago

All the "AI software engineer" hype is about one thing: suppressing developer wages. Steve Jobs used to do this covertly, to some extent, with his "no cold call" anti-poaching agreements. It's a multi-prong attack. One angle is the interest rates and mass layoffs. Another angle is AI. There are more ridiculous ones, such as this "study" that claims 10% of devs do literally no work: https://x.com/yegordb/status/1859290734257635439 https://x.com/yegordb/status/1859290734257635439 - I expect many such studies to be conducted and generously funded by the industry in the coming years. The big irony is how all this talk will lead to a decrease in the software engineer supply. Why would anyone choose a career that's about to die?

moribvndvs 2y ago

My father was a machinist for 25 years, then went into education for trade skills programs. One thing he tirelessly hit on with anyone who would listen was the mid to long term impact of the erosion of manufacturing and trade skills in America. This erosion was due in part to economics, raising kids to eschew blue collar jobs, and finally automation. Indeed, one of his later projects while still a machinist at Eveready Battery was working on automated production lines. His point relating to automation, other than the fact that not everything can or necessarily needs to be automated, was that automation still requires skilled labor, and in his experience, abandoning the next generation of workers results in a crisis of competency and ingenuity. Attrition of a workforce to install, maintain, improve, and integrate machines is a recipe for disaster down the line. Attrition of experts in systems and processes means we will have trouble innovating and reacting to changes in the world, and increases our reliance on black boxes– which provide the same capabilities to your competitors, by the way– and the jackals that sell them to us. My father was not opposed to automation; in fact, he appreciated that it sometimes made his job safer, or more productive, or less strenuous. However, he watched delusional and myopic managers with dollar signs floating in their eyes chasing their tails relentlessly for more and more automation with fewer and fewer people with the knowledge, skill, and responsibility to clean up their constant messes and keep the thing running. No one gives a shit about Gumroad, but I fear similar problems in this industry at large. We have entered a time when we all feed from the same exorbitantly expensive, increasingly less nutritious, thin, gray gruel and will be fucked when the tap it comes from clogs or gets shut off.

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franktankbank 2y ago
I think its a risk with any skillful industry. I heard the same comment in Experimental High Energy Physics. A top dog (for lack of better word) at CERN advocated for automating all of the effort to do the statistical analysis across all the different new particle searches. It did not come to be and at least I heard from my advisor that it would result in too many Physicists not really knowing their own craft.