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> [...] amid a consumer backlash against Elon Musk’s political activism and meddling in regional politics. Hmm, not sure they can attribute the drop entirely t

by cjrp 2y ago

> [...] amid a consumer backlash against Elon Musk’s political activism and meddling in regional politics. Hmm, not sure they can attribute the drop entirely to that. In the UK at least there's been a wave of Chinese brands launching (BYD, Omoda, GWM, etc.), fuel prices have fallen from the high in mid-2022[0], and EVs will soon start paying vehicle tax (£195/year, previously £0). [0] https://www.racfoundation.org/data/uk-pump-prices-over-time https://www.racfoundation.org/data/uk-pump-prices-over-time

zfg 2y ago
So you're saying it's exactly the wrong time for Musk to flip fascist salutes and meddle in European politics? When buyers have a lot of choice of EV, why will they choose to buy a swasticar?
- mytailorisrich 2y ago
  It's pretty clear that he did not do any sort of "fascist salute" but he is learning that in politics reality does not matter, only perception does and how often something is repeated so politicians are usually very careful... Edit: "look exactly like" (reply below) is a QED to my point, really.
  - ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
    How is that clear? The videos that I have seen look exactly like a deliberate nazi salute and I have heard that far right groups (of which I have no contact) interpreted it as such and celebrated it.
  - rspoerri 2y ago
    In 40 years I have never, outside of documentations about the second world war and fictional movies in that area, seen this salute. It is 100% a Nazi salute, that starts by hitting the heart and then stretching the arm. Nothing else comes even close to this that could explain such a behavior. If you don't see it you are either very ignorant or plain ... . Also meeting the AFD that is under investigation because of it's Nazi ideologies makes it clear that he has a very good understanding of what that salute means.
    - mytailorisrich 2y ago
      Election results across Europe and America have shown that accusing people of being "far right" or "Nazi", and to call them ignorant or stupid because they want other policies does not work and only increases polarisation. It is much more productive and useful to try to understand people's concerns but it is also not as easy.
      - watwut 2y ago
        There being support for fascists does not mean fascists are not fascists. In US in particular, Republicans and conservatives were systematically given too much benefit of doubt.
      - rspoerri 2y ago
        Its very well known that if somebody says something extreme, such as radical views, they tend to assume other people who dont oppose them, agree with them. The only possibility is to take your stance and give contra. Also it‘s a difference to be against immigration versus the open salutation and worshipping of a mass murderer millions of europeans and americans have died for to stop. For me it’s disgusting that this tabu is now broken and everybody still tries to loudly ignore it!
      - aaplok 2y ago
        > accusing people of being "far right" or "Nazi", and to call them ignorant or stupid because they want other policies does not work and only increases polarisation. This is true but this is not what's happened here. The discussion is about whether Musk's gesture is a Nazi salute. OP called ignorant people who do not see it as such. They said nothing about those people's opinions and did not accuse them of being far right or Nazis themselves. In fact OP didn't even call Musk a nazi in their post. To conclude that it was their hidden intention to do so is a leap in logic that is not obvious.
        mytailorisrich 2y ago
        Calling someone ignorant for not interpreting what Musk did in the most extremely politically orientated way is a cheap ad hominem attack but unsurprising in the current climate, as I pointed out. Bye.
  - zfg 2y ago
    Musk has been lying about full self driving for 10 years. He had already discovered that reality doesn't matter. He lies constantly: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42902603 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42902603 They were and remain two full on fascist salutes. There's no minimizing it or explaining it away: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smQNNo2a9xc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smQNNo2a9xc
  - watwut 2y ago
    Nah, people just don't feel like giving irrational levels of benefit of the doubt again and again and again and again.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - yongjik 2y ago
    > It's pretty clear that he did not do any sort of "fascist salute" O RLY I guess this is basically our era's version of "point to a deer, call it a horse" (指鹿爲馬) [1]: > Zhao Gao was contemplating treason but was afraid the other officials would not heed his commands, so he decided to test them first. He brought a deer and presented it to the Second Emperor but called it a horse. The Second Emperor laughed and said, "Is the chancellor perhaps mistaken, calling a deer a horse?" Then the emperor questioned those around him. Some remained silent, while some, hoping to ingratiate themselves with Zhao Gao, said it was a horse, and others said it was a deer. Zhao Gao secretly arranged for all those who said it was a deer to be brought before the law and had them executed instantly. Thereafter the officials were all terrified of Zhao Gao. Zhao Gao gained military power as a result of that. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhao_Gao https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhao_Gao
    - mytailorisrich 2y ago
      Not sure if replies purposely ignore the point, thereby proving it, or if I am expressing it badly (Edit: OK, so it is indeed the former...) If we want to use fancy proverbs to show our deep wisdom, I think the following French proverb is more apt to the situation: "If you want to kill your dog, accuse him of having rabies."
      - zfg 2y ago
        If your dog is foaming at the mouth and acting erratically and aggressively then he does have rabies. It's always best to see things as they are.
        ruicraveiro 2y ago
        Or the American saying, if it walks like a duck quacks like a duck and does a nazi salute, then it's definitely a nazi duck.
    - rsynnott 2y ago
      "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." Hadn't realised this one had such a direct antecedent.
  - anon2549 2y ago
    > It's pretty clear that he did not do any sort of "fascist salute" It couldn't be more clear to me that's exactly what he did. More than once. I saw it with my own eyes.
  - tzs 2y ago
    Here's a post [1] where someone has put video of whatever Musk's gesture was side by side with video from a Nazi rally and some later neo Nazi events. What difference do you see between them? [1] https://x.com/BartoSitek/status/1882081868423860315?t=8F0hL-vHWcNRW_8nLU5y7g&s=19 https://x.com/BartoSitek/status/1882081868423860315?t=8F0hL-...
- cjrp 2y ago
  I don't think there's ever a good time for that. I'm saying it's not clear that their drop in sales is because of him, or competition, or other factors.
thefz 2y ago
I see also a general loss of interest of the population towards EVs. The technology is kinda new, yet they already arrive enshittified from the factory. Who wants touch screen hot air controls? Besides, range concerns and a lack of charge stations are another nail in the coffin for EVs in the EU.

by cjrp 2y ago

zfg 2y ago

So you're saying it's exactly the wrong time for Musk to flip fascist salutes and meddle in European politics? When buyers have a lot of choice of EV, why will they choose to buy a swasticar?

mytailorisrich 2y ago
It's pretty clear that he did not do any sort of "fascist salute" but he is learning that in politics reality does not matter, only perception does and how often something is repeated so politicians are usually very careful... Edit: "look exactly like" (reply below) is a QED to my point, really.
- ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
  How is that clear? The videos that I have seen look exactly like a deliberate nazi salute and I have heard that far right groups (of which I have no contact) interpreted it as such and celebrated it.
- rspoerri 2y ago
  In 40 years I have never, outside of documentations about the second world war and fictional movies in that area, seen this salute. It is 100% a Nazi salute, that starts by hitting the heart and then stretching the arm. Nothing else comes even close to this that could explain such a behavior. If you don't see it you are either very ignorant or plain ... . Also meeting the AFD that is under investigation because of it's Nazi ideologies makes it clear that he has a very good understanding of what that salute means.
  - mytailorisrich 2y ago
    Election results across Europe and America have shown that accusing people of being "far right" or "Nazi", and to call them ignorant or stupid because they want other policies does not work and only increases polarisation. It is much more productive and useful to try to understand people's concerns but it is also not as easy.
    - watwut 2y ago
      There being support for fascists does not mean fascists are not fascists. In US in particular, Republicans and conservatives were systematically given too much benefit of doubt.
    - rspoerri 2y ago
      Its very well known that if somebody says something extreme, such as radical views, they tend to assume other people who dont oppose them, agree with them. The only possibility is to take your stance and give contra. Also it‘s a difference to be against immigration versus the open salutation and worshipping of a mass murderer millions of europeans and americans have died for to stop. For me it’s disgusting that this tabu is now broken and everybody still tries to loudly ignore it!
    - aaplok 2y ago
      > accusing people of being "far right" or "Nazi", and to call them ignorant or stupid because they want other policies does not work and only increases polarisation. This is true but this is not what's happened here. The discussion is about whether Musk's gesture is a Nazi salute. OP called ignorant people who do not see it as such. They said nothing about those people's opinions and did not accuse them of being far right or Nazis themselves. In fact OP didn't even call Musk a nazi in their post. To conclude that it was their hidden intention to do so is a leap in logic that is not obvious.
      - mytailorisrich 2y ago
        Calling someone ignorant for not interpreting what Musk did in the most extremely politically orientated way is a cheap ad hominem attack but unsurprising in the current climate, as I pointed out. Bye.
- zfg 2y ago
  Musk has been lying about full self driving for 10 years. He had already discovered that reality doesn't matter. He lies constantly: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42902603 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42902603 They were and remain two full on fascist salutes. There's no minimizing it or explaining it away: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smQNNo2a9xc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smQNNo2a9xc
- watwut 2y ago
  Nah, people just don't feel like giving irrational levels of benefit of the doubt again and again and again and again.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- yongjik 2y ago
  > It's pretty clear that he did not do any sort of "fascist salute" O RLY I guess this is basically our era's version of "point to a deer, call it a horse" (指鹿爲馬) [1]: > Zhao Gao was contemplating treason but was afraid the other officials would not heed his commands, so he decided to test them first. He brought a deer and presented it to the Second Emperor but called it a horse. The Second Emperor laughed and said, "Is the chancellor perhaps mistaken, calling a deer a horse?" Then the emperor questioned those around him. Some remained silent, while some, hoping to ingratiate themselves with Zhao Gao, said it was a horse, and others said it was a deer. Zhao Gao secretly arranged for all those who said it was a deer to be brought before the law and had them executed instantly. Thereafter the officials were all terrified of Zhao Gao. Zhao Gao gained military power as a result of that. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhao_Gao https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhao_Gao
  - mytailorisrich 2y ago
    Not sure if replies purposely ignore the point, thereby proving it, or if I am expressing it badly (Edit: OK, so it is indeed the former...) If we want to use fancy proverbs to show our deep wisdom, I think the following French proverb is more apt to the situation: "If you want to kill your dog, accuse him of having rabies."
    - zfg 2y ago
      If your dog is foaming at the mouth and acting erratically and aggressively then he does have rabies. It's always best to see things as they are.
      - ruicraveiro 2y ago
        Or the American saying, if it walks like a duck quacks like a duck and does a nazi salute, then it's definitely a nazi duck.
  - rsynnott 2y ago
    "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." Hadn't realised this one had such a direct antecedent.
- anon2549 2y ago
  > It's pretty clear that he did not do any sort of "fascist salute" It couldn't be more clear to me that's exactly what he did. More than once. I saw it with my own eyes.
- tzs 2y ago
  Here's a post [1] where someone has put video of whatever Musk's gesture was side by side with video from a Nazi rally and some later neo Nazi events. What difference do you see between them? [1] https://x.com/BartoSitek/status/1882081868423860315?t=8F0hL-vHWcNRW_8nLU5y7g&s=19 https://x.com/BartoSitek/status/1882081868423860315?t=8F0hL-...
cjrp 2y ago
I don't think there's ever a good time for that. I'm saying it's not clear that their drop in sales is because of him, or competition, or other factors.

thefz 2y ago

I see also a general loss of interest of the population towards EVs. The technology is kinda new, yet they already arrive enshittified from the factory. Who wants touch screen hot air controls? Besides, range concerns and a lack of charge stations are another nail in the coffin for EVs in the EU.