6 ms·

I get your comparison to the TikTok ban, but not even noyb is questioning the legality of transfers outside the EU to countries in general, whether pursuant to

I get your comparison to the TikTok ban, but not even noyb is questioning the legality of transfers outside the EU to countries in general, whether pursuant to an European Commission adequacy decision or pursuant to Standard Contractual Clauses. The problem is specifically that US law and policy will make both of those options unviable to guarantee the rights GDPR requires with respect to transfers to the US, once noyb gets the EU courts to state this clearly enough and invalidate the Commission’s adequacy decision for businesses which participate in the EU-US Data Privacy Framework. (In the meantime, EU companies are allowed to rely on that decision.) There are several non-EU countries with adequacy decisions whose validity nobody is questioning, including Canada, New Zealand, and the UK. Many more countries can adequately be handled through Standard Contractual Clauses. The problem is very US-specific.

mrtksn 2y ago
I mean look, the details may vary but the core holds. The businesspeople running EUs communications are directly involved with the openly hostile US government and directly try to influence politics and create rage with the European public. The current open markets model is not working, time to copy from the success stories: Ban foreign ones or force them to become local. The current politicians are still in denial but as things deteriorate things will have to happen. Unlike US, European politics are not just two parties having about the same support. Things can get very spicy very quickly. You think the anti-establishment ones are pro-American? The most pro-American politicians are those in power or those who recently lost power to the anti-establishment. Pretty much non of the anti-establishent are pro-American(with the exception of UK with Farage) and with Musk targeting Farage I'm sure they took a note on how transactional their relationship with the US anti-establishment is.
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  Whichever factions and sentiments gain power in the EU, there's only so much they can do before hitting the major factor that's usually not spelled out explicitly in polite company, but generally understood: the US has nukes and aircraft carriers. We don't - or at least not enough to replace US in the role it plays in Europe's security. I hope they won't be crazy enough to just bludgeon through that anyway, as past that, hic sunt dracones.
  - jamespo 2y ago
    "As of July 2023, France possesses approximately 290 nuclear warheads" how many do you really need?
    - pastage 2y ago
      The answer is none. AFAIK there are no simulations in which nuclear war works. I am not convinced nukes would have helped Ukraine.
  - mrtksn 2y ago
    EU+UK has nukes and Aircraft carriers and even though minuscule to US, has the capacity to build more as the US security is no more. Also, as it was revealed with the war in Ukraine, the Americans spend crazy money on their military but they don't get the best value for it. They failed to provide the Ukraine the necessary ammunition and apparently the costs were multiple times higher with no better outcome compared to the Russian ones. In addition to that, the warfare changed significantly with the drones and its the Europeans(Ukraine + Turkey) who have the most experience with those - both in use and production. Mentioning Turkey, it's actually one of the most formidable militaries with very capable military industry complex. Although it has it's differences with EU, it is an EU candidate country and its economy is fully integrated with EU. Later on when things calm down with Russia, EU-Russia is actually a very fruitful relationship because Russia and EU are perfect match(one has the resources, the other has the technology) and that's why Europeans didn't want to believe that the war is possible. There are many more reasons not to be pessimistic about Europe too.
    - robertlagrant 2y ago
      > Although it has it's differences with EU, it is an EU candidate country and its economy is fully integrated with EU. What is "fully integrated"? It's not on the Euro, for example.
      - mrtksn 2y ago
        Many EU countries are not in the Eurozone. Turkey and EU have a longstanding relationships with Turkey taking part in many of the EU institutions, like the customs union for example. In many ways Turkey acts as an industrial base for EU, many many EU companies have facilities in Turkey that serve EU. Turkey is also in the Council of Europe, is in the jurisdiction of European Court of Human Rights(pays a lots of fines, unfortunately), European Border and Coast Guard Agency. Turkey implemented GDPR compatible privacy laws, it has its infrastructure compatible and integrated with EU etc. Roads, electricity, gas, trains - everything is by the EU standards and integrated within the EU. Environment protection and worker rights are also not that far off. Turkey and EU fell apart only on political level and things like the upholding of the rule of law. In fact, Turkey is one secular government away from being full EU member. For comparison with US, Turkey exports about $140B to EU and only about $14B to US. No matter the politics, it's EU what matters to Turkey and US is a distant 3rd with being only about %8 of the Turkish exports(Europe is %58).
- jkaplowitz 2y ago
  I don't see how banning foreign entities or forcing them to become local would help: many of the disruptive entities in Europe are locally owned. Bolloré owns some major influential right-wing media in France, Axel Springer does the same in Germany (and even in the US - Politico), and so on. Axel Springer is also quite pro-American as well as being right-wing, and Bolloré is quite aligned with the North American right wing, both the anglophone and (in Quebec) francophone varieties. Plus the US Republican Party and the Conservative Party of Canada have major ties to EU member state Hungary and the current Orbán regime, which controls much of the media in that country. All of these entities feed and profit off of rage, despite being EU-owned.

mrtksn 2y ago

I mean look, the details may vary but the core holds. The businesspeople running EUs communications are directly involved with the openly hostile US government and directly try to influence politics and create rage with the European public. The current open markets model is not working, time to copy from the success stories: Ban foreign ones or force them to become local. The current politicians are still in denial but as things deteriorate things will have to happen. Unlike US, European politics are not just two parties having about the same support. Things can get very spicy very quickly. You think the anti-establishment ones are pro-American? The most pro-American politicians are those in power or those who recently lost power to the anti-establishment. Pretty much non of the anti-establishent are pro-American(with the exception of UK with Farage) and with Musk targeting Farage I'm sure they took a note on how transactional their relationship with the US anti-establishment is.

TeMPOraL 2y ago
Whichever factions and sentiments gain power in the EU, there's only so much they can do before hitting the major factor that's usually not spelled out explicitly in polite company, but generally understood: the US has nukes and aircraft carriers. We don't - or at least not enough to replace US in the role it plays in Europe's security. I hope they won't be crazy enough to just bludgeon through that anyway, as past that, hic sunt dracones.
- jamespo 2y ago
  "As of July 2023, France possesses approximately 290 nuclear warheads" how many do you really need?
  - pastage 2y ago
    The answer is none. AFAIK there are no simulations in which nuclear war works. I am not convinced nukes would have helped Ukraine.
- mrtksn 2y ago
  EU+UK has nukes and Aircraft carriers and even though minuscule to US, has the capacity to build more as the US security is no more. Also, as it was revealed with the war in Ukraine, the Americans spend crazy money on their military but they don't get the best value for it. They failed to provide the Ukraine the necessary ammunition and apparently the costs were multiple times higher with no better outcome compared to the Russian ones. In addition to that, the warfare changed significantly with the drones and its the Europeans(Ukraine + Turkey) who have the most experience with those - both in use and production. Mentioning Turkey, it's actually one of the most formidable militaries with very capable military industry complex. Although it has it's differences with EU, it is an EU candidate country and its economy is fully integrated with EU. Later on when things calm down with Russia, EU-Russia is actually a very fruitful relationship because Russia and EU are perfect match(one has the resources, the other has the technology) and that's why Europeans didn't want to believe that the war is possible. There are many more reasons not to be pessimistic about Europe too.
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    > Although it has it's differences with EU, it is an EU candidate country and its economy is fully integrated with EU. What is "fully integrated"? It's not on the Euro, for example.
    - mrtksn 2y ago
      Many EU countries are not in the Eurozone. Turkey and EU have a longstanding relationships with Turkey taking part in many of the EU institutions, like the customs union for example. In many ways Turkey acts as an industrial base for EU, many many EU companies have facilities in Turkey that serve EU. Turkey is also in the Council of Europe, is in the jurisdiction of European Court of Human Rights(pays a lots of fines, unfortunately), European Border and Coast Guard Agency. Turkey implemented GDPR compatible privacy laws, it has its infrastructure compatible and integrated with EU etc. Roads, electricity, gas, trains - everything is by the EU standards and integrated within the EU. Environment protection and worker rights are also not that far off. Turkey and EU fell apart only on political level and things like the upholding of the rule of law. In fact, Turkey is one secular government away from being full EU member. For comparison with US, Turkey exports about $140B to EU and only about $14B to US. No matter the politics, it's EU what matters to Turkey and US is a distant 3rd with being only about %8 of the Turkish exports(Europe is %58).
jkaplowitz 2y ago
I don't see how banning foreign entities or forcing them to become local would help: many of the disruptive entities in Europe are locally owned. Bolloré owns some major influential right-wing media in France, Axel Springer does the same in Germany (and even in the US - Politico), and so on. Axel Springer is also quite pro-American as well as being right-wing, and Bolloré is quite aligned with the North American right wing, both the anglophone and (in Quebec) francophone varieties. Plus the US Republican Party and the Conservative Party of Canada have major ties to EU member state Hungary and the current Orbán regime, which controls much of the media in that country. All of these entities feed and profit off of rage, despite being EU-owned.