4 ms·

> Thousands of EU businesses, government agencies or schools rely on these provisions. Without the TADPF, they would need to stop using US cloud providers like

> Thousands of EU businesses, government agencies or schools rely on these provisions. Without the TADPF, they would need to stop using US cloud providers like Apple, Google, Microsoft or Amazon instantly. Please God let this happen

harha 2y ago
This would be incredibly funny to follow. Fax machines and mainframes would make an impressive return, as Europe moves even more towards a more relaxed pace.
- IrezaH 2y ago
  The EU economies were better in the early 1990s, before all this unnecessary Windows, cloud nonsense, social networks etc. invaded. The US exports hot air and gets real goods in return.
  - egorfine 2y ago
    Yeah, I too had better personal life back in the day when MS-DOS was the main operating system for the common people and offices.
    - wfwHa 2y ago
      [flagged]
    - anonzzzies 2y ago
      There was at least a lot more sex with ms-dos as your partner wouldn't be very importantly commenting 5 depressed bananas to some shite post about nothing while you try to get them all fired up.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Nah, we would get fine with SuSE Linux and Jolla.
  - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
    That makes me think, would Linux, having been made in Finland originally, fall under an export restriction if it came to that? I mean it's open source and thus can no longer be contained but still, interesting thought experiment in what would happen if linux was no longer allowed to be used from one day to the next.
- inexcf 2y ago
  Thanks for making me chuckle. You call it a return of fax machines. You would have some fun looking into German government offices.
- infthi 2y ago
  One can already access AI with fax. What else would one need? https://simple-fax.de/fax-ki https://simple-fax.de/fax-ki
- Maken 2y ago
  Jokes aside, I would rather have mainframes than Windows and cloud services everywhere in public administrations.
  - harha 2y ago
    Fully with you on dropping Windows, and I don’t think cloud really has positive ROI vs building or hosting in a lot of cases. There are a lot of good cases though, scaling, access etc.
- amarcheschi 2y ago
  Tbh some alternatives are popping up, such as lidl having a cloud division that offers services similar to aws I just hope that if it happens, it's a very gradual rollout and not a hard one
- anonzzzies 2y ago
  Mainframes wouldn't be that bad; give me a mainframe client (we have a few) any day over a 'move fast break things we now use the latest wasm kubernetes micro nano services backplane react liveview fiber cloud' crap that somehow breaks literally every day, even without deploying.
- thomasz 2y ago
  No, Europe will not go back to the Stone Age. US services will be substituted for somewhat shittier European services. That’s how it goes. On average, everyone will be worse of. The European customer loses, US tech loses, European tech wins. I’m somewhat surprised about this kind of gleeful condescension in this particular forum, of all places.
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    I would be pretty happy if the EU ploughed a load of money into a FOSS office suite on an ongoing basis.
    - thomasz 2y ago
      Import substitution is one of these ideas that sounds great but seldom works out as intended. Bureaucracies instead of markets now pick winners, and their picks tend to be significantly worse. I really hope they are smart about it and treat this as a measured retaliation against easily substitutable products like twitter, Facebook and gmail, maybe cloud hosting and Amazon marketplace. There is zero chance of any initiative to produce a competitive office suite or operating system, but there will be undoubtedly real pressure to burn billions of taxpayer euros to try exactly that.
      - robertlagrant 2y ago
        I sort of agree, except they are already picking by making Office their IT procurement choice. Choosing to only use documents in .odf format would definitely do something, and they could start funding bugs etc in whatever libraries/office software would bring value to their org.
  - homarp 2y ago
    I'll take a hezner and ovh cloud. But you are right, we might have to use SAP instead of siebel and peoplesoft
  - myrmidon 2y ago
    I think this is essentially the exact same approach as the "bring back US electronics/heavy industry"-- you subsidise a sector (either directly, via regulation or tariffs). This can have positive outcomes (crisis tolerance, less reliance on international trade), but all those jobs that it brings, are basically paid for fully by additional costs for taxpayers/consumers (and there are also negative side effects on other sectors). I think this is currently in vogue globally (both sides of the political spectrum), but its important to remember that we had good reaons to stop doing this in the past (or at least scale it down to absolutely vital sectors like agriculture).
josefx 2y ago
They will just write up a new deal, which will be legal until it is declared illegal by a court after half a decade of litigation. Rinse, repeat. This has been going on for ages already.
- anonzzzies 2y ago
  Half a decade being 4 years minus a month right? When everything gets rolled back as usual.
yread 2y ago
We would just all switch to sqlite running on hetzner's dedis
- sam_lowry_ 2y ago
  And we will spend 100x times less on infra, nourish our own industry and redirect the money to the improvement of our electrical grid and local subsidies. I am all for it. As someone working for the public administration I've long been worried about the decline of skills of IT workers here in Europe. It is especially flagrant in email infrastructure. Since we are offshoring email to Microsoft for a long time already, we totally forgot how to manage email internally for the few cases when we still need it.
rsynnott 2y ago
Hetzner Maximalism.
Gazoche 2y ago
There’s no way this will happen any time soon. I work at a billion-dollar EU company that’s balls deep in Azure after a very, very long migration away from on-prem datacenters. Cutting off US-based cloud providers would be chaos of biblical proportions.
- zurn 2y ago
  Does this use case involve US data transfer? Azure seems to have invested quite a lot into implementing EU data residency.
  - jsnell 2y ago
    Data residency isn't anywhere near sufficient. The threat model is that the US government can either a) force the US-based employees of a US company to copy the data from EU to US and hand it to the US authorities, b) if not possible, force the US-based employees to order the EU-based employees in their reporting chain to copy the data from EU to US, or c) if not possible, order the company to circumvent any technical measures they have in place to make such copying of data impossible.
- Juliate 2y ago
  As many EU companies are. But it still looks like a lot of people responsible for risk-assessment didn't do their job properly...
EasyMark 2y ago
This won't happen, the broligarchs will tap him on the shoulder and remind him who is really in charge and who has the actual money and not junk coins. There will be a diplomatic answer to this soon, it's not a fight he will stand his ground on.

harha 2y ago

This would be incredibly funny to follow. Fax machines and mainframes would make an impressive return, as Europe moves even more towards a more relaxed pace.

IrezaH 2y ago
The EU economies were better in the early 1990s, before all this unnecessary Windows, cloud nonsense, social networks etc. invaded. The US exports hot air and gets real goods in return.
- egorfine 2y ago
  Yeah, I too had better personal life back in the day when MS-DOS was the main operating system for the common people and offices.
  - wfwHa 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - anonzzzies 2y ago
    There was at least a lot more sex with ms-dos as your partner wouldn't be very importantly commenting 5 depressed bananas to some shite post about nothing while you try to get them all fired up.
pjmlp 2y ago
Nah, we would get fine with SuSE Linux and Jolla.
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  That makes me think, would Linux, having been made in Finland originally, fall under an export restriction if it came to that? I mean it's open source and thus can no longer be contained but still, interesting thought experiment in what would happen if linux was no longer allowed to be used from one day to the next.
inexcf 2y ago
Thanks for making me chuckle. You call it a return of fax machines. You would have some fun looking into German government offices.
infthi 2y ago
One can already access AI with fax. What else would one need? https://simple-fax.de/fax-ki https://simple-fax.de/fax-ki
Maken 2y ago
Jokes aside, I would rather have mainframes than Windows and cloud services everywhere in public administrations.
- harha 2y ago
  Fully with you on dropping Windows, and I don’t think cloud really has positive ROI vs building or hosting in a lot of cases. There are a lot of good cases though, scaling, access etc.
amarcheschi 2y ago
Tbh some alternatives are popping up, such as lidl having a cloud division that offers services similar to aws I just hope that if it happens, it's a very gradual rollout and not a hard one
anonzzzies 2y ago
Mainframes wouldn't be that bad; give me a mainframe client (we have a few) any day over a 'move fast break things we now use the latest wasm kubernetes micro nano services backplane react liveview fiber cloud' crap that somehow breaks literally every day, even without deploying.
thomasz 2y ago
No, Europe will not go back to the Stone Age. US services will be substituted for somewhat shittier European services. That’s how it goes. On average, everyone will be worse of. The European customer loses, US tech loses, European tech wins. I’m somewhat surprised about this kind of gleeful condescension in this particular forum, of all places.
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  I would be pretty happy if the EU ploughed a load of money into a FOSS office suite on an ongoing basis.
  - thomasz 2y ago
    Import substitution is one of these ideas that sounds great but seldom works out as intended. Bureaucracies instead of markets now pick winners, and their picks tend to be significantly worse. I really hope they are smart about it and treat this as a measured retaliation against easily substitutable products like twitter, Facebook and gmail, maybe cloud hosting and Amazon marketplace. There is zero chance of any initiative to produce a competitive office suite or operating system, but there will be undoubtedly real pressure to burn billions of taxpayer euros to try exactly that.
    - robertlagrant 2y ago
      I sort of agree, except they are already picking by making Office their IT procurement choice. Choosing to only use documents in .odf format would definitely do something, and they could start funding bugs etc in whatever libraries/office software would bring value to their org.
- homarp 2y ago
  I'll take a hezner and ovh cloud. But you are right, we might have to use SAP instead of siebel and peoplesoft
- myrmidon 2y ago
  I think this is essentially the exact same approach as the "bring back US electronics/heavy industry"-- you subsidise a sector (either directly, via regulation or tariffs). This can have positive outcomes (crisis tolerance, less reliance on international trade), but all those jobs that it brings, are basically paid for fully by additional costs for taxpayers/consumers (and there are also negative side effects on other sectors). I think this is currently in vogue globally (both sides of the political spectrum), but its important to remember that we had good reaons to stop doing this in the past (or at least scale it down to absolutely vital sectors like agriculture).

josefx 2y ago

They will just write up a new deal, which will be legal until it is declared illegal by a court after half a decade of litigation. Rinse, repeat. This has been going on for ages already.

anonzzzies 2y ago
Half a decade being 4 years minus a month right? When everything gets rolled back as usual.

yread 2y ago

We would just all switch to sqlite running on hetzner's dedis

sam_lowry_ 2y ago
And we will spend 100x times less on infra, nourish our own industry and redirect the money to the improvement of our electrical grid and local subsidies. I am all for it. As someone working for the public administration I've long been worried about the decline of skills of IT workers here in Europe. It is especially flagrant in email infrastructure. Since we are offshoring email to Microsoft for a long time already, we totally forgot how to manage email internally for the few cases when we still need it.

rsynnott 2y ago

Hetzner Maximalism.

Gazoche 2y ago

There’s no way this will happen any time soon. I work at a billion-dollar EU company that’s balls deep in Azure after a very, very long migration away from on-prem datacenters. Cutting off US-based cloud providers would be chaos of biblical proportions.

zurn 2y ago
Does this use case involve US data transfer? Azure seems to have invested quite a lot into implementing EU data residency.
- jsnell 2y ago
  Data residency isn't anywhere near sufficient. The threat model is that the US government can either a) force the US-based employees of a US company to copy the data from EU to US and hand it to the US authorities, b) if not possible, force the US-based employees to order the EU-based employees in their reporting chain to copy the data from EU to US, or c) if not possible, order the company to circumvent any technical measures they have in place to make such copying of data impossible.
Juliate 2y ago
As many EU companies are. But it still looks like a lot of people responsible for risk-assessment didn't do their job properly...

EasyMark 2y ago

This won't happen, the broligarchs will tap him on the shoulder and remind him who is really in charge and who has the actual money and not junk coins. There will be a diplomatic answer to this soon, it's not a fight he will stand his ground on.