11 ms·

America's Dangerous Movement Toward Oligarchy, Authoritarianism and Kleptocracy

232 points by hkhn 2y ago

wahnfrieden 2y ago
[flagged]
jayloofah 2y ago
Hope this stays up, possibly the most important news to appear on HN today. Edit: Flagged off in 3 minutes...
- FearNotDaniel 2y ago
  I’m watching the horror show of US politics unfold from Western Europe, where I know every outrageous step that Trump takes, unchallenged, will only empower and encourage those would-be dictators who are attempting to take over and possibly dismantle our political systems too. But to call this “important news” isn’t really a fair description. It’s an opinion piece, which at surface level (hopefully) echoes the opinions of many readers who are recoiling in horror about the apparent destruction of democracy before their very eyes; however it is also a propaganda piece from one extremist celebrity leader against another, probably just as selective in its facts as all the guff that comes from the “other side”. The solution to right-extremism is not left-extremism, the real question is how can we talk reasonable people at both ends of the spectrum back from the ledge and attempt to form a new era of collaborative politics that aims for balance and fairness?
  - anal_reactor 2y ago
    The biggest problem is that we'd like our leaders to be exceptionally smart in order to efficiently govern the country, but at the same time we don't want the leaders to outsmart the voters. These two expectations are mutually exclusive, and most democracies just end up praying that whatever politicians get elected, they turn out to be benevolent, instead of focuing on self-interest. Whoever wields the power, how do we keep them in check, and what kind of power do we use for that?
    - alkyon 2y ago
      In the US they have the check & balances mechanism to ensure against "Who will watch the watchmen" problem. Still with the current president they are already being put through their paces. The constitution could be weakened by amendments or even disregarded if you have enough power in your grip.
- cbare 2y ago
  Yep, I agree with ya. Whoever moderated that away is lame.
  - karmakurtisaani 2y ago
    The whole broligarchy thing seems to appeal to a part of HN, possibly because of it's origins in the tech bro scene.
    - archagon 2y ago
      Even Yarvin himself has posted here in the past, both under his namesake account and (I think) as urbit.
- tim333 2y ago
  Musk was on stage with Trump and said he wanted to slash spending and the US people voted them in winning every swing state. Not sure it's a good idea but that's what 'we the people' chose.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - pupppet 2y ago
    Probably just a coincidence USAID was one of the first to get the axe and they just happened to be investigating Starlink contracts in Ukraine.
- scarab92 2y ago
  If the democrats earnestly cared about USAID they wouldn’t have painted a giant target on it by treating it as a slush fund for partisan pet projects. Trump and Musk were crystal clear ahead of the election that they intended to stop exactly this type of partisan funding, and the public agreed at the election. While I can appreciate there are some legal ambiguities around the specific techniques used to enact that mandate, the left appear to be attacking the mandate itself, which is undemocratic and risks creating the impression that they are attending to subvert the will of the public.
  - rookderby 2y ago
    Watch this [0] interview with a former USAID diector. He states you dont blow up the organization and attack the non-political civil servants, you install a director that works with you on your policies. Also their IG was investigating starlink, which may be related and is certainly a conflict of interest [1]. [0] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/former-usaid-administrator-describes-global-impact-of-agencys-destruction https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/former-usaid-administrator... [1] https://gizmodo.com/elon-musks-enemy-usaid-was-investigating-starlink-over-its-contracts-in-ukraine-2000559365 https://gizmodo.com/elon-musks-enemy-usaid-was-investigating...
    - scarab92 2y ago
      The Starlink contract is almost certainly immaterial. It's only a temporary arrangement to support Ukraine and the contract value is under $1 million per year. If you remember Starlink even initially provided the hardware and services to Ukraine for free.
- sershe 2y ago
  Happy to help! Go away to reddit with your propaganda
  - Craighead 2y ago
    [dead]
- soerxpso 2y ago
  Political editorials are not the reason anyone is coming to this site. I want to read about tech. Go to Reddit.
suraci 2y ago
> Elon Musk and his unelected minions at DOGE have forced out officials at the Treasury Department and illegally shut down US AID – a program which, among other things, helps feed and provide medical help to starving and desperate children all over the world. Pfft, among other things
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
roenxi 2y ago
USAID is a key plank in the US overseas propaganda and regime change system. If moving further towards oligarchy [0] involves shutting that down and promoting global stability then it may well be worth it. Indeed, it'll be interesting to see if any evidence is uncovered that operations funded by it were also influencing the US. It is hard to see how they could operate without spreading domestic misinformation, we live in an era where communication networks are global. Although given all the attention that Elon attracted its way it'll probably have to rebrand even if it does survive the Trump administration. It'll have the same problem as the National Endowment for Democracy in that too many people will know which names to keep an eye out for. [0] In practice the US has always been quite oligarchic.
- bagels 2y ago
  Elon is a lying fraud. I'm pretty skeptical about any claims of fact that come out of his expedition.
- MattGaiser 2y ago
  > involves shutting that down and promoting global stability Hungry, shelterless people desperate for medicine are not good for global stability. There are about 100 million refugees on the planet.
  - roenxi 2y ago
    "That thing you [defunded] isn't important to me; it's the [regime change] unit. It makes shoes for orphans... nice job breaking it, hero." ~ GLaDOS, Potal Your basic point is a bit off. A lot of those refugees are because of the destabilisation the US is responsible for. If there is a cover organisation for something terrible and it does a little good in the process it is still terrible. Take that line could justify an entire invasion because they secure peace for the survivors. The real outrage here is Bernie Sanders defending the organisation. They should have sent in someone who isn't trying to brand themselves as principled, maybe Schiff.
- markhahn 2y ago
  Sure, aid is propaganda. How do you get to regime change?
markhahn 2y ago
Their ethic is to win by any means. The purpose of shock-and-awe is to change the facts on the ground, before and institutional guardrails can engage. It's less fait accompli than humpty-dumpty.
- EasyMark 2y ago
  Their whole schtick is based up "tell a lie often enough and most people will start thinking it's the truth". The vast majority of what they're doing has been unconstitutional and/or breaking laws laid out by Congress. There are also repeated lies over and over, "facts" made up on the spot, quoting tweets from psychos as if they're the gold standard for truth.
doubledamio 2y ago
[flagged]
jimmydoe 2y ago
He won the popular vote. Afaics majority of America prefer to be ruled by the rich. Honest even DEM won, it can be seen as ruled by rich too. To not to be ruled by the rich, so much legislation change is required, I don’t think that’s feasible democratically/peacefully.
- bananapub 2y ago
  > He won the popular vote. it seems relevant that he just straight up lied a lot the whole time: https://www.factcheck.org/2024/09/a-guide-to-project-2025/ https://www.factcheck.org/2024/09/a-guide-to-project-2025/: > “I know nothing about Project 2025,” Trump wrote on Truth Social on July 5. “I have no idea who is behind it. I disagree with some of the things they’re saying and some of the things they’re saying are absolutely ridiculous and abysmal. Anything they do, I wish them luck, but I have nothing to do with them.” > A week later, on July 11, Trump again took to Truth Social to further distance himself from the plan. > “I know nothing about Project 2025,” Trump wrote. “I have not seen it, have no idea who is in charge of it, and, unlike our very well received Republican Platform, had nothing to do with it. The Radical Left Democrats are having a field day, however, trying to hook me into whatever policies are stated or said. It is pure disinformation on their part. By now, after all of these years, everyone knows where I stand on EVERYTHING!” whereas, now https://www.politico.com/interactives/2025/trump-executive-orders-project-2025/ https://www.politico.com/interactives/2025/trump-executive-o...: > 37 ways Project 2025 has shown up in Trump’s executive orders his policies and mates are wildly unpopular, so he just lied about it and then did it anyway. obviously people - and in particular the media - are extremely dumb for believing him, but it's not unreasonable, most politicians don't fully lie about nearly their entire policy program.
  - roenxi 2y ago
    > ...his policies and mates are wildly unpopular... It is too early to say. He'd actually doing pretty well in favourability polling [0] and is certainly doing a lot better than the Congress. But it is proper to wait another month to see what people think when the situation has calmed down a little. From a distance it looks like he is attempting to implement policies he campaigned on but who really knows. And that approach would be a bit unusual in the US public's experience so it isn't obvious how they will react. It is unfortunate 538.com doesn't seem to have the comparisons to former presidents available. It'd be fun to check how he is doing vs Trump I. [0] https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/favorability/donald-trump/ https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/favorability/dona...
arunabha 2y ago
This is clearly a deliberate shock and awe campaign by Trump and his acolytes to cause as much chaos and damage as possible before they encounter resistance. Another objective is to likely bring a case about the constitutionality of the Impoundment act in front of a conservative supreme court. What's sickening is that the norms might be permanently changed even if Trump and Elon are pushed back. The next president with an authoritarian bent will have plenty of precedent to justify similar behaviour.
- karmakurtisaani 2y ago
  If they want to follow the usual play book, the next steps would be: - wait for the mass protests, use them as an excuse to strengthen the police and/or roll out the nazi boys to attack opposition - create a fake terrorist attack to justify full blown police state - flood the media with conspiracies and lies so that no one can tel the truth anymore - create and fund a controlled opposition Some of these worked for Hitler, others for Putin. I hope it doesn't go to this in the US, but the pace of things suggests otherwise.
SubiculumCode 2y ago
What Trump is doing to NIH..I have never felt more abused.
2-3-7-43-1807 2y ago
[flagged]
- tarsinge 2y ago
  It’s quite clear with DNC sabotaging Bernie Sanders campaign in 2016 and the way they handled 2024. Losing to Trump was an acceptable outcome compared to challenging the establishment.
- EasyMark 2y ago
  That's simply not true, they all worked within the law. Trump has broken the law many times over just the past two weeks by exceeding his authority and completely ignoring the laws passed by Congress. Birthright citizenship, USAID, Firing people he can't fire, ignoring contracts, sending goons to take over the payments system; it has been hard for the judicial system to keep him in Check since Congress obviously is capitulating and burying their heads in the sand.
  - 2-3-7-43-1807 2y ago
    pelosi is neck deep in insider training. and biden's pardons for his son and others are also "legal" at best. just to give two examples off the top of my head. if the law is broken - you have to break the law.
Blackstrat 2y ago
When you cite an article by a very wealthy socialist, crying about oligarchy and a kleptocracy, you have no credibility from the outset. Further, I've yet to see anyone cite a Constitutional authorization for USAID. The US government is trillions in debt and spends massive amounts of our tax dollars on things for which there is no Constitutional authority. What is happening now isn't any of the things that folks here, in the media, and on the left are screaming. It's the exact opposite. And again, as history has shown, if Musk had been acting on behalf of democrats and had maintained the left wing Twitter echo chamber, he be hailed as the man that saved our "democracy". And BTW, the US is not and was never intended to be a democracy. It was founded as a republic though events have eroded that for more than a century.
- alkyon 2y ago
  Bernie Sanders if anything is a social democrat and certainly he is a poor man compared to Trump, Musk & affiliates. His net worth is "only" 3 million dollars, if you serve half a century in Congress you could accumulate this kind of money (not to mention inheritance and royalties from all of the books he wrote). What idea is that that a socialist needs to be poor? Is the Pope poor? Was Engels poor?
  - Blackstrat 2y ago
    His net worth is more than $3 million. His homes are worth that much. You may claim that his declared net worth is $3 million. Citing Engels, the son of a wealthy textile manufacturer doesn't help your case either. History has repeatedly shown that socialism is a destructive form of government, beneficial only to the elites in the country and never the rest of the country. The US has become far too socialist in my 70 or so years. It's time to unwind it. And the last couple of weeks have been a good start.
    - piva00 2y ago
      > The US has become far too socialist in my 70 or so years. You have absolutely no idea what socialism means and this simple line exhibits that pornographically clearly...
aristofun 2y ago
Unfortunately democrats should have thought about the consequences when they were pushing woke agenda, when they were too dumb and weak in external affairs, when they were busy dividing and polarizing society, waiting out instead of proactively solving hard problems and making hard choices. They were investing in Trump’s popularity. In similar way how communists and socialists were investing in hitler’s back in the days. People were so fed up with all the nonsense and weak stupid leaders that they would fall for anyone with a tiny drop of sense, some patriotism and some balls.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

232 points by hkhn 2y ago

wahnfrieden 2y ago

[flagged]

jayloofah 2y ago

Hope this stays up, possibly the most important news to appear on HN today. Edit: Flagged off in 3 minutes...

FearNotDaniel 2y ago
I’m watching the horror show of US politics unfold from Western Europe, where I know every outrageous step that Trump takes, unchallenged, will only empower and encourage those would-be dictators who are attempting to take over and possibly dismantle our political systems too. But to call this “important news” isn’t really a fair description. It’s an opinion piece, which at surface level (hopefully) echoes the opinions of many readers who are recoiling in horror about the apparent destruction of democracy before their very eyes; however it is also a propaganda piece from one extremist celebrity leader against another, probably just as selective in its facts as all the guff that comes from the “other side”. The solution to right-extremism is not left-extremism, the real question is how can we talk reasonable people at both ends of the spectrum back from the ledge and attempt to form a new era of collaborative politics that aims for balance and fairness?
- anal_reactor 2y ago
  The biggest problem is that we'd like our leaders to be exceptionally smart in order to efficiently govern the country, but at the same time we don't want the leaders to outsmart the voters. These two expectations are mutually exclusive, and most democracies just end up praying that whatever politicians get elected, they turn out to be benevolent, instead of focuing on self-interest. Whoever wields the power, how do we keep them in check, and what kind of power do we use for that?
  - alkyon 2y ago
    In the US they have the check & balances mechanism to ensure against "Who will watch the watchmen" problem. Still with the current president they are already being put through their paces. The constitution could be weakened by amendments or even disregarded if you have enough power in your grip.
cbare 2y ago
Yep, I agree with ya. Whoever moderated that away is lame.
- karmakurtisaani 2y ago
  The whole broligarchy thing seems to appeal to a part of HN, possibly because of it's origins in the tech bro scene.
  - archagon 2y ago
    Even Yarvin himself has posted here in the past, both under his namesake account and (I think) as urbit.
tim333 2y ago
Musk was on stage with Trump and said he wanted to slash spending and the US people voted them in winning every swing state. Not sure it's a good idea but that's what 'we the people' chose.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- pupppet 2y ago
  Probably just a coincidence USAID was one of the first to get the axe and they just happened to be investigating Starlink contracts in Ukraine.
scarab92 2y ago
If the democrats earnestly cared about USAID they wouldn’t have painted a giant target on it by treating it as a slush fund for partisan pet projects. Trump and Musk were crystal clear ahead of the election that they intended to stop exactly this type of partisan funding, and the public agreed at the election. While I can appreciate there are some legal ambiguities around the specific techniques used to enact that mandate, the left appear to be attacking the mandate itself, which is undemocratic and risks creating the impression that they are attending to subvert the will of the public.
- rookderby 2y ago
  Watch this [0] interview with a former USAID diector. He states you dont blow up the organization and attack the non-political civil servants, you install a director that works with you on your policies. Also their IG was investigating starlink, which may be related and is certainly a conflict of interest [1]. [0] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/former-usaid-administrator-describes-global-impact-of-agencys-destruction https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/former-usaid-administrator... [1] https://gizmodo.com/elon-musks-enemy-usaid-was-investigating-starlink-over-its-contracts-in-ukraine-2000559365 https://gizmodo.com/elon-musks-enemy-usaid-was-investigating...
  - scarab92 2y ago
    The Starlink contract is almost certainly immaterial. It's only a temporary arrangement to support Ukraine and the contract value is under $1 million per year. If you remember Starlink even initially provided the hardware and services to Ukraine for free.
sershe 2y ago
Happy to help! Go away to reddit with your propaganda
- Craighead 2y ago
  [dead]
soerxpso 2y ago
Political editorials are not the reason anyone is coming to this site. I want to read about tech. Go to Reddit.

suraci 2y ago

> Elon Musk and his unelected minions at DOGE have forced out officials at the Treasury Department and illegally shut down US AID – a program which, among other things, helps feed and provide medical help to starving and desperate children all over the world. Pfft, among other things

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

roenxi 2y ago

USAID is a key plank in the US overseas propaganda and regime change system. If moving further towards oligarchy [0] involves shutting that down and promoting global stability then it may well be worth it. Indeed, it'll be interesting to see if any evidence is uncovered that operations funded by it were also influencing the US. It is hard to see how they could operate without spreading domestic misinformation, we live in an era where communication networks are global. Although given all the attention that Elon attracted its way it'll probably have to rebrand even if it does survive the Trump administration. It'll have the same problem as the National Endowment for Democracy in that too many people will know which names to keep an eye out for. [0] In practice the US has always been quite oligarchic.

bagels 2y ago
Elon is a lying fraud. I'm pretty skeptical about any claims of fact that come out of his expedition.
MattGaiser 2y ago
> involves shutting that down and promoting global stability Hungry, shelterless people desperate for medicine are not good for global stability. There are about 100 million refugees on the planet.
- roenxi 2y ago
  "That thing you [defunded] isn't important to me; it's the [regime change] unit. It makes shoes for orphans... nice job breaking it, hero." ~ GLaDOS, Potal Your basic point is a bit off. A lot of those refugees are because of the destabilisation the US is responsible for. If there is a cover organisation for something terrible and it does a little good in the process it is still terrible. Take that line could justify an entire invasion because they secure peace for the survivors. The real outrage here is Bernie Sanders defending the organisation. They should have sent in someone who isn't trying to brand themselves as principled, maybe Schiff.
markhahn 2y ago
Sure, aid is propaganda. How do you get to regime change?

markhahn 2y ago

Their ethic is to win by any means. The purpose of shock-and-awe is to change the facts on the ground, before and institutional guardrails can engage. It's less fait accompli than humpty-dumpty.

EasyMark 2y ago
Their whole schtick is based up "tell a lie often enough and most people will start thinking it's the truth". The vast majority of what they're doing has been unconstitutional and/or breaking laws laid out by Congress. There are also repeated lies over and over, "facts" made up on the spot, quoting tweets from psychos as if they're the gold standard for truth.

doubledamio 2y ago

[flagged]

jimmydoe 2y ago

He won the popular vote. Afaics majority of America prefer to be ruled by the rich. Honest even DEM won, it can be seen as ruled by rich too. To not to be ruled by the rich, so much legislation change is required, I don’t think that’s feasible democratically/peacefully.

bananapub 2y ago
> He won the popular vote. it seems relevant that he just straight up lied a lot the whole time: https://www.factcheck.org/2024/09/a-guide-to-project-2025/ https://www.factcheck.org/2024/09/a-guide-to-project-2025/: > “I know nothing about Project 2025,” Trump wrote on Truth Social on July 5. “I have no idea who is behind it. I disagree with some of the things they’re saying and some of the things they’re saying are absolutely ridiculous and abysmal. Anything they do, I wish them luck, but I have nothing to do with them.” > A week later, on July 11, Trump again took to Truth Social to further distance himself from the plan. > “I know nothing about Project 2025,” Trump wrote. “I have not seen it, have no idea who is in charge of it, and, unlike our very well received Republican Platform, had nothing to do with it. The Radical Left Democrats are having a field day, however, trying to hook me into whatever policies are stated or said. It is pure disinformation on their part. By now, after all of these years, everyone knows where I stand on EVERYTHING!” whereas, now https://www.politico.com/interactives/2025/trump-executive-orders-project-2025/ https://www.politico.com/interactives/2025/trump-executive-o...: > 37 ways Project 2025 has shown up in Trump’s executive orders his policies and mates are wildly unpopular, so he just lied about it and then did it anyway. obviously people - and in particular the media - are extremely dumb for believing him, but it's not unreasonable, most politicians don't fully lie about nearly their entire policy program.
- roenxi 2y ago
  > ...his policies and mates are wildly unpopular... It is too early to say. He'd actually doing pretty well in favourability polling [0] and is certainly doing a lot better than the Congress. But it is proper to wait another month to see what people think when the situation has calmed down a little. From a distance it looks like he is attempting to implement policies he campaigned on but who really knows. And that approach would be a bit unusual in the US public's experience so it isn't obvious how they will react. It is unfortunate 538.com doesn't seem to have the comparisons to former presidents available. It'd be fun to check how he is doing vs Trump I. [0] https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/favorability/donald-trump/ https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/favorability/dona...

arunabha 2y ago

This is clearly a deliberate shock and awe campaign by Trump and his acolytes to cause as much chaos and damage as possible before they encounter resistance. Another objective is to likely bring a case about the constitutionality of the Impoundment act in front of a conservative supreme court. What's sickening is that the norms might be permanently changed even if Trump and Elon are pushed back. The next president with an authoritarian bent will have plenty of precedent to justify similar behaviour.

karmakurtisaani 2y ago
If they want to follow the usual play book, the next steps would be: - wait for the mass protests, use them as an excuse to strengthen the police and/or roll out the nazi boys to attack opposition - create a fake terrorist attack to justify full blown police state - flood the media with conspiracies and lies so that no one can tel the truth anymore - create and fund a controlled opposition Some of these worked for Hitler, others for Putin. I hope it doesn't go to this in the US, but the pace of things suggests otherwise.

SubiculumCode 2y ago

What Trump is doing to NIH..I have never felt more abused.

2-3-7-43-1807 2y ago

[flagged]

tarsinge 2y ago
It’s quite clear with DNC sabotaging Bernie Sanders campaign in 2016 and the way they handled 2024. Losing to Trump was an acceptable outcome compared to challenging the establishment.
EasyMark 2y ago
That's simply not true, they all worked within the law. Trump has broken the law many times over just the past two weeks by exceeding his authority and completely ignoring the laws passed by Congress. Birthright citizenship, USAID, Firing people he can't fire, ignoring contracts, sending goons to take over the payments system; it has been hard for the judicial system to keep him in Check since Congress obviously is capitulating and burying their heads in the sand.
- 2-3-7-43-1807 2y ago
  pelosi is neck deep in insider training. and biden's pardons for his son and others are also "legal" at best. just to give two examples off the top of my head. if the law is broken - you have to break the law.

Blackstrat 2y ago

When you cite an article by a very wealthy socialist, crying about oligarchy and a kleptocracy, you have no credibility from the outset. Further, I've yet to see anyone cite a Constitutional authorization for USAID. The US government is trillions in debt and spends massive amounts of our tax dollars on things for which there is no Constitutional authority. What is happening now isn't any of the things that folks here, in the media, and on the left are screaming. It's the exact opposite. And again, as history has shown, if Musk had been acting on behalf of democrats and had maintained the left wing Twitter echo chamber, he be hailed as the man that saved our "democracy". And BTW, the US is not and was never intended to be a democracy. It was founded as a republic though events have eroded that for more than a century.

alkyon 2y ago
Bernie Sanders if anything is a social democrat and certainly he is a poor man compared to Trump, Musk & affiliates. His net worth is "only" 3 million dollars, if you serve half a century in Congress you could accumulate this kind of money (not to mention inheritance and royalties from all of the books he wrote). What idea is that that a socialist needs to be poor? Is the Pope poor? Was Engels poor?
- Blackstrat 2y ago
  His net worth is more than $3 million. His homes are worth that much. You may claim that his declared net worth is $3 million. Citing Engels, the son of a wealthy textile manufacturer doesn't help your case either. History has repeatedly shown that socialism is a destructive form of government, beneficial only to the elites in the country and never the rest of the country. The US has become far too socialist in my 70 or so years. It's time to unwind it. And the last couple of weeks have been a good start.
  - piva00 2y ago
    > The US has become far too socialist in my 70 or so years. You have absolutely no idea what socialism means and this simple line exhibits that pornographically clearly...

aristofun 2y ago

Unfortunately democrats should have thought about the consequences when they were pushing woke agenda, when they were too dumb and weak in external affairs, when they were busy dividing and polarizing society, waiting out instead of proactively solving hard problems and making hard choices. They were investing in Trump’s popularity. In similar way how communists and socialists were investing in hitler’s back in the days. People were so fed up with all the nonsense and weak stupid leaders that they would fall for anyone with a tiny drop of sense, some patriotism and some balls.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]