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> still have no real comprehensive understanding how the models work. We do understand how they work, we just have not optimised their usage. For example some

> still have no real comprehensive understanding how the models work. We do understand how they work, we just have not optimised their usage. For example someone who has a good general understanding of how an ICE or EV car works. Even if the user interface is very unfamiliar, they can figure out how to drive any car within a couple of minutes. But that does not mean they can race a car, drift a car or drive a car on challenging terrain even if the car is physically capable of all these things.

spiorf 2y ago
We know how the next token is selected, but not why doing that repeatedly brings all the capabilities it does. We really don't understand how the emergent behaviours emerge.
- Valgrim 2y ago
  It feels less like a word prediction algorithm and more like a world model compression algorithm. Maybe we tried to create one and accidentaly created the other?
  - codeulike 2y ago
    Its almost like a Model of Language, but very Large
  - bloomingkales 2y ago
    Why would asking a question about ice cream trigger a consideration about all possible topics? As in, to formulate the answer, the LLM will consider the origin of Elephants even. It won’t be significant, but it will be factored in. Why? In the spiritual realm, many postulated that even the Elephant you never met is part of your life. None of this is a coincidence.
- fennecfoxy 2y ago
  Eh I feel like that mostly just down to; yes transformers are a "next token predictor" but during fine tuning for instruct the attention related wagon slapped on the back is partially hijacked as a bridge from input token->sequences of connections in the weights. For example if I ask "If I have two foxes and I take away one, how many foxes do I have?" I reckon attention has been hijacked to essentially highlight the "if I have x and take away y then z" portion of the query to connect to a learned sequence from readily available training data (apparently the whole damn Internet) where there are plenty of examples of said math question trope, just using some other object type than foxes. I think we could probably prove it by tracing the hyperdimensional space the model exists in and ask it variants of the same question/find hotspots in that space that would indicate it's using those same sequences (with attention branching off to ensure it replies with the correct object type that was referenced).
gessha 2y ago
Your example is somewhat inadequate. We _fundamentally_ don’t understand how deep learning systems works in the sense that they are more or less black boxes that we train and evaluate. Innovations in ML are a whole bunch of wizards with big stacks of money changing “Hmm” to “Wait” and seeing what happens. Would a different sampler help you? I dunno, try it. Would a smaller dataset help? I dunno, try it. Would training the model for 5000 days help? I dunno, try it. Car technology is the opposite of that - it’s a white box. It’s composed of very well defined elements whose interactions are defined and explained by laws of thermodynamics and whatnot.
- brookst 2y ago
  Isn't that just scale? Even small LLMs have more parts than any car. LLMs are more analogous to economics, psychology, politics -- it is possible there's a core science with explicability, but the systems are so complex that even defining the question is hard.
  - ChymeraXYZ 2y ago
    Could be, but it does not change the fact that we do not understand them as of now.
  - gessha 2y ago
    You can make a bigger ICE engine (like a container ship engine) and still understand how the whole thing works. Maybe there’s more parts moving but it still has the structure of an ICE engine. With neural networks big or small, we got no clue what’s going on. You can observe the whole system, from the weights and biases, to the activations, gradients, etc and still get nothing. On the other hand, one of the reasons why economics, psychology and politics are hard is because we can’t open up people’s heads and define and measure what they’re thinking.
    - ijk 2y ago
      One way I've heard it summarized: Computer Science as a field is used to things being like physics or chemistry, but we've suddenly encountered something that behaves more like biology.
adamc 2y ago
The "Wait" vs. "Hmm" discussion in the paper does not suggest we know how they work. If we knew, we wouldn't have to try things and measure to figure out the best prompt.

spiorf 2y ago

We know how the next token is selected, but not why doing that repeatedly brings all the capabilities it does. We really don't understand how the emergent behaviours emerge.

Valgrim 2y ago
It feels less like a word prediction algorithm and more like a world model compression algorithm. Maybe we tried to create one and accidentaly created the other?
- codeulike 2y ago
  Its almost like a Model of Language, but very Large
- bloomingkales 2y ago
  Why would asking a question about ice cream trigger a consideration about all possible topics? As in, to formulate the answer, the LLM will consider the origin of Elephants even. It won’t be significant, but it will be factored in. Why? In the spiritual realm, many postulated that even the Elephant you never met is part of your life. None of this is a coincidence.
fennecfoxy 2y ago
Eh I feel like that mostly just down to; yes transformers are a "next token predictor" but during fine tuning for instruct the attention related wagon slapped on the back is partially hijacked as a bridge from input token->sequences of connections in the weights. For example if I ask "If I have two foxes and I take away one, how many foxes do I have?" I reckon attention has been hijacked to essentially highlight the "if I have x and take away y then z" portion of the query to connect to a learned sequence from readily available training data (apparently the whole damn Internet) where there are plenty of examples of said math question trope, just using some other object type than foxes. I think we could probably prove it by tracing the hyperdimensional space the model exists in and ask it variants of the same question/find hotspots in that space that would indicate it's using those same sequences (with attention branching off to ensure it replies with the correct object type that was referenced).

gessha 2y ago

Your example is somewhat inadequate. We _fundamentally_ don’t understand how deep learning systems works in the sense that they are more or less black boxes that we train and evaluate. Innovations in ML are a whole bunch of wizards with big stacks of money changing “Hmm” to “Wait” and seeing what happens. Would a different sampler help you? I dunno, try it. Would a smaller dataset help? I dunno, try it. Would training the model for 5000 days help? I dunno, try it. Car technology is the opposite of that - it’s a white box. It’s composed of very well defined elements whose interactions are defined and explained by laws of thermodynamics and whatnot.

brookst 2y ago
Isn't that just scale? Even small LLMs have more parts than any car. LLMs are more analogous to economics, psychology, politics -- it is possible there's a core science with explicability, but the systems are so complex that even defining the question is hard.
- ChymeraXYZ 2y ago
  Could be, but it does not change the fact that we do not understand them as of now.
- gessha 2y ago
  You can make a bigger ICE engine (like a container ship engine) and still understand how the whole thing works. Maybe there’s more parts moving but it still has the structure of an ICE engine. With neural networks big or small, we got no clue what’s going on. You can observe the whole system, from the weights and biases, to the activations, gradients, etc and still get nothing. On the other hand, one of the reasons why economics, psychology and politics are hard is because we can’t open up people’s heads and define and measure what they’re thinking.
  - ijk 2y ago
    One way I've heard it summarized: Computer Science as a field is used to things being like physics or chemistry, but we've suddenly encountered something that behaves more like biology.

adamc 2y ago

The "Wait" vs. "Hmm" discussion in the paper does not suggest we know how they work. If we knew, we wouldn't have to try things and measure to figure out the best prompt.