6 ms·

I don't have outrage fatigue. Outrages are outrages and they are what they are. Are there many exaggerations and fake outrages? Sure. But things like the USA's

I don't have outrage fatigue. Outrages are outrages and they are what they are. Are there many exaggerations and fake outrages? Sure. But things like the USA's current constitutional crisis are real. What I struggle with isn't fatigue at outrage, it's knowing what to do about it. I think violence is going to become more common, but I don't particularly think it will be effective. So less so than outrage, it's the feeling that we're trapped in a real life doom loop with no clear off ramp that I struggle with. I would like to do something... But what?

philomath_mn 2y ago
> I think violence is going to become more common What kind and why?
- Glyptodon 2y ago
  Stuff like the Thompson or Abe assassinations. That said, I think the why is more complicated. At least in the US I think there's a general sense that the world is backsliding, and that people feel like any bump on the road of life risks turning into a complete derailment. But this doesn't lead to any one particular ideology or course of action, so much as externalization of angst, whether against individuals, systems, or the "nobody pays attention to our angst let's burn it all down" attitude that's somewhat widespread.
  - genewitch 2y ago
    for the record, not everyone in the US thinks the sky is falling. it's the same extremely vocal groups as before that do, from what i can see. Some of us are cautiously optimistic.
    - lukas099 2y ago
      It’s not that the sky is falling, it’s that we’re autocratizing. Usually that’s a gradual process.
    - xpe 2y ago
      Think about the recipe we’re seeing: Trump is scaring off career civil servants and installing loyalists whose allegiance is to Trump before the Constitution. He’s ignoring court orders. This is not ok, even if you like some of the policies, because it is democratic decline. It is happening. So all of us can figure out what we can do … whether it be staying sane, focusing our efforts where they matter, donating, … I don’t have a magic bullet. But this country is worth fighting for.
  - cowfriend 2y ago
    > that people feel like any bump on the road of life risks turning into a complete derailment. Maybe because in many ways it can be? Unexpected medical condition -> crushing debt Police stop goes bad Job loss for reasons outside of your control Wildfires burn your house down, or some other natural disaster
- pjc50 2y ago
  The US has what from the outside looks like a very odd combination of: - violent anti-government rhetoric (not a new phenomenon at all) - huge availability of guns - explicit links between the two by second-amendment advocates of violence against the government - very little of what would normally be called political violence (Jan 6 is an exception, but a significant one) - a huge amount of "radicalized" gun violence against schoolchildren (Columbine to Uvalde, etc) This doesn't feel very stable. It relies on people's actions never matching their words. As soon as someone turns a gun on an elected representative there's a risk of the situation escalating. Or someone could independently reinvent the carbomb, a common factor in situations from the IRA to Iraq.
blooalien 2y ago
> So less so than outrage, it's the feeling that we're trapped in a real life doom loop with no clear off ramp that I struggle with. Glad I'm not alone, but knowing that doesn't change the situation. Still unable to wake from the nightmare... :(
- starky 2y ago
  Last week I realized that this is bringing up the same feelings of anxiety as early 2020 where I'm living through something that I have little ability to change and don't know how bad it actually is going to get.
dayofthedaleks 2y ago
Consider watching Paul Shraeder's _First Reformed_. We're all nearly powerless but our choices do matter.
LeoPanthera 2y ago
I decided that other people are far more organized than I am and can respond more effectively, so I'm outsourcing political action in the form of donations. I've earmarked 3% of my income every month for a list of selected charities that currently includes the ACLU, the HRC, and a short list of smaller ones. I encourage you to do the same!
- returningfory2 2y ago
  Edit: decided I don't want to engage on this issue.
  - padolsey 2y ago
    > Edit: decided I don't want to engage on this issue. I think I want that on my headstone :p
- palmotea 2y ago
  > I've earmarked 3% of my income every month for a list of selected charities that currently includes the ACLU, the HRC, and a short list of smaller ones. I don't think that's a good investment, considering how badly those organizations failed in order to bring us to today.
  - andy_ppp 2y ago
    How did these organisations make people vote for Donald Trump?
    - lenerdenator 2y ago
      Not OP, but to me, these are organizations that are meant for a world where laws matter. They spent the four years of the Biden administration acting like a hall monitor telling other students they can't smoke in the boys' room. Like, not only can they smoke in the boys' room, they have done so repeatedly. They have upgraded from clove cigarettes to tobacco to weed to crack. The current oligarchs of the US got there by having no shame and by not caring about the rules, because ultimately, they're just words on paper unless someone uses force (through the state's monopoly on it) to make them a reality.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Trasmatta 2y ago
That's exactly where the fatigue comes from. Knowing how bad things are without knowing what to do about it.
vmnb 2y ago
[dead]
computerthings 2y ago
I know this is kinda banal, but I think even getting to know your neighbors (if you don't already know them) could be a good first step. Also look what exists locally, and maybe even start something. And with so many vulnerable groups under attack, you can probably get in touch or help out with many of them and find adjacent ways to get involved in the core political issues. I genuinely think as long as you trust your gut (and are a sensible person), that literally doing "something", and then iterating on that, should not be discounted. Ignore outcome for a second, whatever the "chances" may be -- whatever you can contribute, I'm 100% sure that less dread will be helpful, both for yourself and the outcome. And the more active and together with other people who are active you become, the better you'll feel, and the better ideas you'll get. But I'm pretty sure violence will not be helpful. It's the arena tyrants bait protesters into because that's when they win. That is, if the people are in such a majority that violence could achieve anything, then negotiation or surrender can be achieved, and violence would just be cruelty and barbarism IMO. Remember how mad people got at that sermon about having empathy? I found that incredibly telling, and I think we should tend to and build on our empathy, it's a super power. Fighting for yourself takes courage, but fighting for those who can't fight for themselves gives courage.
johnnyanmac 2y ago
>I think violence is going to become more common, but I don't particularly think it will be effective. depends on where the violence is directed. Riots on the street and attacking fellow citizens will not change anything. Some old president suddenly falling ill would change a lot (not necessarily "everything". But a lot). >I would like to do something... But what? how much do you want to scale it? Short term keep pressure on congress, and call your representatives. Your 2 senates (both their local and DC Office each), and your Rep's office. Everyday is ideal but unlikely. Don't flood them with every issue; pick one or 2 and talk about that. They barely take email/letters/online forms into account, and Republicans call much more often than Democrats (yes, that is an issue to look into as well). If you want to protest and there's something local, that's your choice. But I understand wanting to protect yourself. Stay as low tech as possible if you want to mitigate identification. Smart phone and other tech at home, use a burner phone if you need it. Midterm (no, literally. Miderms) - form or donate to coalitions. It may feel like an eternity, but 2026 will come in a blink and you want to make sure to try and turn as much of congress as possible. Those efforts start now, not next year. Keep who's in and helping in, and shift those who's condoning it out. Keep awareness up - attend your local meetings with mayors/govenors/reps. Change starts from the locals, and surprise: most of the people who attend these tend to be older folk with no traditional workweek. Because they are doing meetings during the rep's workweek. Again, voice your concerns to people who have a chance to change it. - if you're the type to post: don't let this gish gallop be ignored. Post every medium-large update in communities. You won't change many minds per post, but some will start to realize what's going on and shift. I've seen a few already. A few a day adds up to thousands over 2 years. And these are still slim margin congress. From there there's a laundry list of long-term actions, but those really depend on Midterms. The theme is that there are people to talk to and not enough people get their voices heard. Don't underestimate the power you hold over who is elected in office.
- jncfhnb 2y ago
  Violence against everything got us the fair housing act of 1968 I don’t think it will work against an autocrat
josh_p 2y ago
I think one of the best things you can do now is to be available in your local communities. You don’t have to be a leader there, but showing up, lending a bit of your time, or just making yourself known as an ally, especially to groups that are being targeted by this administration is helpful. If things do get bad (job loss, no money, food scarcity) you’ll be able to fall back on the community you’re a part of. Check out your local library for a jumping off point. Local pride centers would be happy to have you around. I was feeling similar things (do I need go buy a gun?! No, I don’t.) and I decided that investing time in local communities is better.
smrtinsert 2y ago
The current situation is designed to disregulate all people in the United States and create disengagement and defeatism. The best advice I've heard so far is to prioritize self-regulation BEFORE engaging in reaction/action to the news. Inform yourself to your capacity and lock in when you can, but lock in you must, or the crisis will continue growing.
- Eextra953 2y ago
  This is great advice, thanks for this! Whenever I've been in a stressful work situation using this approach has always led to better outcomes.
Terr_ 2y ago
This felt useful to me: > Make sure you are talking to people and doing something. The logic of “move fast and break things,” like the logic of all coups, is to gain quick dramatic successes that deter and demoralize and create the impression of inevitability. Nothing is inevitable. Do not be alone and do not be dismayed. Find someone who is doing something you admire and join them. https://snyder.substack.com/p/the-logic-of-destruction https://snyder.substack.com/p/the-logic-of-destruction
internet_points 2y ago
> So less so than outrage, it's the feeling that we're trapped in a real life doom loop with no clear off ramp that I struggle with. > I would like to do something... But what? That sounds exactly like outrage fatigue. And the solution is in this article: Read less social media, get more sunlight, instead of despairing at the global state[0] of the world, get involved in local issues where you can actually have a measurable effect. [0] as programmers this should be self-evident
basisword 2y ago
>> But things like the USA's current constitutional crisis are real. While I have no doubt this is true, is it _actually_ having any impact on your day to day life? If you didn't have social media, didn't read the news, and somehow didn't even know there was an election (I know this one isn't possible) would your day to day life have changed at all? Look at the past week as an example. Threats of tariffs, headline news, retaliation, and then backing down before anything happened bringing us largely back to where we started. Don't get me wrong, there are people directly affected by these things and I'm not going to get into whether the approach above is ethical or not. But for most people, I believe you could genuinely switch off and not notice any difference at all. And even if you know and are well read on the issues (as it sounds like you may be) - what can you do about it? In fact - have you done anything about it? If the answer is no then what's the point in being informed?
- righthand 2y ago
  This is wrong, Trump and his policies does affect everyone’s day to day life. It may not be immediately visible effect but that is why he lost the 2nd time he tried to run. This fallacy didn’t cause people to vote for Trump in this current election, it caused them to not vote. Not voting is a direct negative effect on your life because you’ve chosen to give up on understanding the consequences. We are basically on track to repeat the last time he was in office because people have chosen to believe the fallacy out of fatigue. The exact fatigue we are talking about right now. The common thread with Trump is to blame other people for your unhappiness whether an issue affects you daily or not. Then tie that unrelated unhappiness to these issues. That causes fatigue and effects your daily life trying to work through an unsolvable problem (from the individual perspective). For example my father is farmer in a 2 man farming operation. He never spends any time around or near immigrants, not even remotely close, but he has been blaming the immigrants for his unhappiness. If you ask him why it’s because there is this “crisis” with ominous consequences that no one can define.
  - marcusverus 2y ago
    > He never spends any time around or near immigrants He's literally married to an immigrant.
Gud 2y ago
Work on government reform. Work on bringing power back to the people, implement direct, decentralized democracy. It might sound like a silly pipe dream. But it works extremely well in Switzerland and I promise it won't just work well where you live, your country will flourish.
- xpe 2y ago
  Can you give some specific policy directions you are advocating so I can better understand what you mean?

philomath_mn 2y ago

> I think violence is going to become more common What kind and why?

Glyptodon 2y ago
Stuff like the Thompson or Abe assassinations. That said, I think the why is more complicated. At least in the US I think there's a general sense that the world is backsliding, and that people feel like any bump on the road of life risks turning into a complete derailment. But this doesn't lead to any one particular ideology or course of action, so much as externalization of angst, whether against individuals, systems, or the "nobody pays attention to our angst let's burn it all down" attitude that's somewhat widespread.
- genewitch 2y ago
  for the record, not everyone in the US thinks the sky is falling. it's the same extremely vocal groups as before that do, from what i can see. Some of us are cautiously optimistic.
  - lukas099 2y ago
    It’s not that the sky is falling, it’s that we’re autocratizing. Usually that’s a gradual process.
  - xpe 2y ago
    Think about the recipe we’re seeing: Trump is scaring off career civil servants and installing loyalists whose allegiance is to Trump before the Constitution. He’s ignoring court orders. This is not ok, even if you like some of the policies, because it is democratic decline. It is happening. So all of us can figure out what we can do … whether it be staying sane, focusing our efforts where they matter, donating, … I don’t have a magic bullet. But this country is worth fighting for.
- cowfriend 2y ago
  > that people feel like any bump on the road of life risks turning into a complete derailment. Maybe because in many ways it can be? Unexpected medical condition -> crushing debt Police stop goes bad Job loss for reasons outside of your control Wildfires burn your house down, or some other natural disaster
pjc50 2y ago
The US has what from the outside looks like a very odd combination of: - violent anti-government rhetoric (not a new phenomenon at all) - huge availability of guns - explicit links between the two by second-amendment advocates of violence against the government - very little of what would normally be called political violence (Jan 6 is an exception, but a significant one) - a huge amount of "radicalized" gun violence against schoolchildren (Columbine to Uvalde, etc) This doesn't feel very stable. It relies on people's actions never matching their words. As soon as someone turns a gun on an elected representative there's a risk of the situation escalating. Or someone could independently reinvent the carbomb, a common factor in situations from the IRA to Iraq.

blooalien 2y ago

> So less so than outrage, it's the feeling that we're trapped in a real life doom loop with no clear off ramp that I struggle with. Glad I'm not alone, but knowing that doesn't change the situation. Still unable to wake from the nightmare... :(

starky 2y ago
Last week I realized that this is bringing up the same feelings of anxiety as early 2020 where I'm living through something that I have little ability to change and don't know how bad it actually is going to get.

dayofthedaleks 2y ago

Consider watching Paul Shraeder's _First Reformed_. We're all nearly powerless but our choices do matter.

LeoPanthera 2y ago

I decided that other people are far more organized than I am and can respond more effectively, so I'm outsourcing political action in the form of donations. I've earmarked 3% of my income every month for a list of selected charities that currently includes the ACLU, the HRC, and a short list of smaller ones. I encourage you to do the same!

returningfory2 2y ago
Edit: decided I don't want to engage on this issue.
- padolsey 2y ago
  > Edit: decided I don't want to engage on this issue. I think I want that on my headstone :p
palmotea 2y ago
> I've earmarked 3% of my income every month for a list of selected charities that currently includes the ACLU, the HRC, and a short list of smaller ones. I don't think that's a good investment, considering how badly those organizations failed in order to bring us to today.
- andy_ppp 2y ago
  How did these organisations make people vote for Donald Trump?
  - lenerdenator 2y ago
    Not OP, but to me, these are organizations that are meant for a world where laws matter. They spent the four years of the Biden administration acting like a hall monitor telling other students they can't smoke in the boys' room. Like, not only can they smoke in the boys' room, they have done so repeatedly. They have upgraded from clove cigarettes to tobacco to weed to crack. The current oligarchs of the US got there by having no shame and by not caring about the rules, because ultimately, they're just words on paper unless someone uses force (through the state's monopoly on it) to make them a reality.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

Trasmatta 2y ago

That's exactly where the fatigue comes from. Knowing how bad things are without knowing what to do about it.

vmnb 2y ago

[dead]

computerthings 2y ago

I know this is kinda banal, but I think even getting to know your neighbors (if you don't already know them) could be a good first step. Also look what exists locally, and maybe even start something. And with so many vulnerable groups under attack, you can probably get in touch or help out with many of them and find adjacent ways to get involved in the core political issues. I genuinely think as long as you trust your gut (and are a sensible person), that literally doing "something", and then iterating on that, should not be discounted. Ignore outcome for a second, whatever the "chances" may be -- whatever you can contribute, I'm 100% sure that less dread will be helpful, both for yourself and the outcome. And the more active and together with other people who are active you become, the better you'll feel, and the better ideas you'll get. But I'm pretty sure violence will not be helpful. It's the arena tyrants bait protesters into because that's when they win. That is, if the people are in such a majority that violence could achieve anything, then negotiation or surrender can be achieved, and violence would just be cruelty and barbarism IMO. Remember how mad people got at that sermon about having empathy? I found that incredibly telling, and I think we should tend to and build on our empathy, it's a super power. Fighting for yourself takes courage, but fighting for those who can't fight for themselves gives courage.

johnnyanmac 2y ago

>I think violence is going to become more common, but I don't particularly think it will be effective. depends on where the violence is directed. Riots on the street and attacking fellow citizens will not change anything. Some old president suddenly falling ill would change a lot (not necessarily "everything". But a lot). >I would like to do something... But what? how much do you want to scale it? Short term keep pressure on congress, and call your representatives. Your 2 senates (both their local and DC Office each), and your Rep's office. Everyday is ideal but unlikely. Don't flood them with every issue; pick one or 2 and talk about that. They barely take email/letters/online forms into account, and Republicans call much more often than Democrats (yes, that is an issue to look into as well). If you want to protest and there's something local, that's your choice. But I understand wanting to protect yourself. Stay as low tech as possible if you want to mitigate identification. Smart phone and other tech at home, use a burner phone if you need it. Midterm (no, literally. Miderms) - form or donate to coalitions. It may feel like an eternity, but 2026 will come in a blink and you want to make sure to try and turn as much of congress as possible. Those efforts start now, not next year. Keep who's in and helping in, and shift those who's condoning it out. Keep awareness up - attend your local meetings with mayors/govenors/reps. Change starts from the locals, and surprise: most of the people who attend these tend to be older folk with no traditional workweek. Because they are doing meetings during the rep's workweek. Again, voice your concerns to people who have a chance to change it. - if you're the type to post: don't let this gish gallop be ignored. Post every medium-large update in communities. You won't change many minds per post, but some will start to realize what's going on and shift. I've seen a few already. A few a day adds up to thousands over 2 years. And these are still slim margin congress. From there there's a laundry list of long-term actions, but those really depend on Midterms. The theme is that there are people to talk to and not enough people get their voices heard. Don't underestimate the power you hold over who is elected in office.

jncfhnb 2y ago
Violence against everything got us the fair housing act of 1968 I don’t think it will work against an autocrat

josh_p 2y ago

I think one of the best things you can do now is to be available in your local communities. You don’t have to be a leader there, but showing up, lending a bit of your time, or just making yourself known as an ally, especially to groups that are being targeted by this administration is helpful. If things do get bad (job loss, no money, food scarcity) you’ll be able to fall back on the community you’re a part of. Check out your local library for a jumping off point. Local pride centers would be happy to have you around. I was feeling similar things (do I need go buy a gun?! No, I don’t.) and I decided that investing time in local communities is better.

smrtinsert 2y ago

The current situation is designed to disregulate all people in the United States and create disengagement and defeatism. The best advice I've heard so far is to prioritize self-regulation BEFORE engaging in reaction/action to the news. Inform yourself to your capacity and lock in when you can, but lock in you must, or the crisis will continue growing.

Eextra953 2y ago
This is great advice, thanks for this! Whenever I've been in a stressful work situation using this approach has always led to better outcomes.

Terr_ 2y ago

This felt useful to me: > Make sure you are talking to people and doing something. The logic of “move fast and break things,” like the logic of all coups, is to gain quick dramatic successes that deter and demoralize and create the impression of inevitability. Nothing is inevitable. Do not be alone and do not be dismayed. Find someone who is doing something you admire and join them. https://snyder.substack.com/p/the-logic-of-destruction https://snyder.substack.com/p/the-logic-of-destruction

internet_points 2y ago

> So less so than outrage, it's the feeling that we're trapped in a real life doom loop with no clear off ramp that I struggle with. > I would like to do something... But what? That sounds exactly like outrage fatigue. And the solution is in this article: Read less social media, get more sunlight, instead of despairing at the global state[0] of the world, get involved in local issues where you can actually have a measurable effect. [0] as programmers this should be self-evident

basisword 2y ago

>> But things like the USA's current constitutional crisis are real. While I have no doubt this is true, is it _actually_ having any impact on your day to day life? If you didn't have social media, didn't read the news, and somehow didn't even know there was an election (I know this one isn't possible) would your day to day life have changed at all? Look at the past week as an example. Threats of tariffs, headline news, retaliation, and then backing down before anything happened bringing us largely back to where we started. Don't get me wrong, there are people directly affected by these things and I'm not going to get into whether the approach above is ethical or not. But for most people, I believe you could genuinely switch off and not notice any difference at all. And even if you know and are well read on the issues (as it sounds like you may be) - what can you do about it? In fact - have you done anything about it? If the answer is no then what's the point in being informed?

righthand 2y ago
This is wrong, Trump and his policies does affect everyone’s day to day life. It may not be immediately visible effect but that is why he lost the 2nd time he tried to run. This fallacy didn’t cause people to vote for Trump in this current election, it caused them to not vote. Not voting is a direct negative effect on your life because you’ve chosen to give up on understanding the consequences. We are basically on track to repeat the last time he was in office because people have chosen to believe the fallacy out of fatigue. The exact fatigue we are talking about right now. The common thread with Trump is to blame other people for your unhappiness whether an issue affects you daily or not. Then tie that unrelated unhappiness to these issues. That causes fatigue and effects your daily life trying to work through an unsolvable problem (from the individual perspective). For example my father is farmer in a 2 man farming operation. He never spends any time around or near immigrants, not even remotely close, but he has been blaming the immigrants for his unhappiness. If you ask him why it’s because there is this “crisis” with ominous consequences that no one can define.
- marcusverus 2y ago
  > He never spends any time around or near immigrants He's literally married to an immigrant.

Gud 2y ago

Work on government reform. Work on bringing power back to the people, implement direct, decentralized democracy. It might sound like a silly pipe dream. But it works extremely well in Switzerland and I promise it won't just work well where you live, your country will flourish.

xpe 2y ago
Can you give some specific policy directions you are advocating so I can better understand what you mean?