6 ms·

There was just as much "large pain" being inflicted on people in the previous 4 years, it just didn't affect you personally.

braiamp 2y ago
Dude, lets be real here: most people would say the economy is shit, while still being comfortable with their lives. Anyone's general assessment of the economy based on gut, is meaningless. Unless you were on food banks/stamps, you were doing pretty good for all intents and purposes.
- lazyeye 2y ago
  This statement is ridiculously out of touch.
  - HEmanZ 2y ago
    There is a massive amount of evidence that Americans basically think everyone else is having a terrible time, but asked to review their own living situation things are going well. Here’s a decent summary from late 2024: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/23/opinion/biden-trump-vibecession.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/23/opinion/biden-trump-vibec... Instead of engaging in the data, opponents usually yell the equivalent of what you put “You’re just out of touch!” Or throw in an anecdote like “well my cousin is having a terrible time!”. What’s going on the US is weirder than a “normal” economic problem. That’s what makes it so frustrating and politically polarizing.
    - lazyeye 2y ago
      Sorry but quoting the NYTimes as evidence would be no different from a Republican quoting Fox News as evidence to you. Here's an old quote from the author, the esteemable Paul Krugman “The growth of the Internet will slow drastically, as the flaw in ‘Metcalfe’s law’—which states that the number of potential connections in a network is proportional to the square of the number of participants—becomes apparent: most people have nothing to say to each other! By 2005 or so, it will become clear that the Internet’s impact on the economy has been no greater than the fax machine’s.”
      - lazyeye 2y ago
        Here's another mea culpa from Paul Krugman (he was wrong about globalization). What Economists (Including Me) Got Wrong About Globalization https://archive.md/DrJKm https://archive.md/DrJKm If you stick up a liquor and kill a couple of people you go to jail for life. If you advocate for polices that destroy the local economies of middle America with all the ills that ensue...social breakdown, drug addiction/overdoses, crime etc. Well you get to write a mea culpa and then head off to a nice dinner at your favorite NY restaurant I guess.
      - HEmanZ 2y ago
        I linked this article because it summarizes why the data is weird and links to multiple sources, and frames the problem in a way that can be engaged with in a relatively short format. I find it telling that instead of arguing with data, points presented, or any source of counter argument, you act like the only argument in this article is “it’s right because I say so.” Much easier to dismiss a position as “can’t be right because you were wrong on something before” than actually think I guess.
        lazyeye 2y ago
        Clearly the American people did see a problem with inflation and voted accordingly. And no matter how they try to spin it to support a particular political narrative, that won't change. There are so many ways to spin the numbers to make them support an argument. I'm not an economist so am in no position to assess (and I'm guessing neither are you). But given the track record (bias) of the NYT, I'm always going to be a bit suspicious.
        HEmanZ 2y ago
        Honestly I wasn’t even approaching this with right vs left in mind. I spend most of my voice on this subject talking down my liberal friends off a cliff. The right and the left tend to think the economy has never been worse and it’s all X fault. Here’s the same jist from the economist: https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/10/17/americas-economy-is-bigger-and-better-than-ever https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/10/17/americas-econom... If you want the thoughtful, smart, very right wing source on it, then check out the Cato institute: https://www.cato.org/commentary/americans-grim-views-decent-us-economy-are-perfectly-understandable https://www.cato.org/commentary/americans-grim-views-decent-.... Which tries to explain it as basically “people get really mad about inflation even if technically as a whole they are better off”. But the Cato economists still concede that overall the economy is/was doing extremely well and things are improving for people that by standard economic measures looks really good.
slg 2y ago
Statements like this seem to originate in that environment polluted by propaganda that the previous comment mentions. For example, I genuinely don't know how someone can look at something like the dismantling of USAID as anything but an increase in "large pain". Sure, there are almost certainly individual programs within that organization that are wasteful and aren't the best use of our tax dollars, but there is (or at least was as of a few weeks ago) broad bipartisan support for this type of investment in humanity and stopping it will clearly inflict pain on people and this administration is at best indifferent to that pain.
- HEmanZ 2y ago
  Just using your example tho, I feel there are two kinds of framing. 1. This is literally a worse outcome than the alternative you prefer. You should care enough to try to fight it politically, especially if you are well positioned to do so. 2. This case (and 99% of cases of political outrage I see on the news) is trivial in the context of what is “normal” for human political history, even the political history that many people alive today were around for. Will this even register as a trivia question in 100 years? Is a framing I ask myself when I’m mad about something in the world. I think a lot of people walked from a world where they had no idea what the normal tumult of human political society is like, even normal American political messiness, and into the world of 24/7 current political news without any context what came before. It’s like, the sausage has always been made this way, you’re just now finding out. I say these things and it always pisses people off. But I don’t recommend not caring, the world moves forward one micrometer at a time by caring, it’s just not worth the existential angst I see so often.
  - slg 2y ago
    >2. This case (and 99% of cases of political outrage I see on the news) is trivial in the context of what is “normal” for human political history, even the political history that many people alive today were around for. >Will this even register as a trivia question in 100 years? Is a framing I ask myself when I’m mad about something in the world. To me, this is an utterly nihilistic framing that renders one's entire life meaningless because the logic doesn't just apply to bad things. Like why did you even leave this comment? Maybe you or I remember for a little while. Maybe a handful of other people who read it will too. But no one is going to remember it, let alone genuinely care about what either of us said 100 years from now.
guelo 2y ago
I need examples
scelerat 2y ago
Examples, please. If you are trans, you were just de-personed by executive order and your passport was invalidated. If you also happened to be an incarcerated female, you are being transferred to male facilities. These are actions which will have life-altering consequences. That's only one thing among many others (ICE immigrant raids which also sweep up legal immigrants and citizens who don't "look American") just in the first few days. What "large pain" are you talking about?
- genewitch 2y ago
  so things that affect less than 1% in the former and less than 0.01% in the latter, of the population, that's what we're basing "large pain" on? I'm not entirely sure you want to play this game. edit: and vis a vis the USAID thing the former president of Kenya summed it up "Why you are crying? you don't pay american taxes! we need to take care of ourselves!" https://www.msn.com/en-xl/africa/other/us-aid-suspension-wake-up-call-for-africa-ex-kenya-president/ar-AA1y6tUF https://www.msn.com/en-xl/africa/other/us-aid-suspension-wak...
  - blackle 2y ago
    Any percentage of people being de-personed is bad. If the state is permitted to withhold travel documents of people indefinitely (and the supporting documents they sent in to get their passport renewed[1]), do you really live in a free state? Also, and I know people knee-jerk at the comparison, but historically speaking Jews comprised less than 1% of the population of Weimar Germany.[2] The smallness of the percentage shouldn't be cause to dismiss the harm of their discrimination as "no big deal." It's been shown where that leads. [1] https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/news/2025/01/28/state-department-passport-gender-marker/77976486007/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/news/2025/01/28/state-... [2] https://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/pdf/eng/JEW_RELIGIONZUGEHTABELLE_ENG.pdf https://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/pdf/eng/JEW_RELIGIONZUG...
    - philwelch 2y ago
      No US citizen is unable to get a passport. The only issue is that their passport needs to reflect their biological sex rather than their gender identity. I personally think this policy is excessive but nobody is being "de-personed".

braiamp 2y ago

Dude, lets be real here: most people would say the economy is shit, while still being comfortable with their lives. Anyone's general assessment of the economy based on gut, is meaningless. Unless you were on food banks/stamps, you were doing pretty good for all intents and purposes.

lazyeye 2y ago
This statement is ridiculously out of touch.
- HEmanZ 2y ago
  There is a massive amount of evidence that Americans basically think everyone else is having a terrible time, but asked to review their own living situation things are going well. Here’s a decent summary from late 2024: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/23/opinion/biden-trump-vibecession.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/23/opinion/biden-trump-vibec... Instead of engaging in the data, opponents usually yell the equivalent of what you put “You’re just out of touch!” Or throw in an anecdote like “well my cousin is having a terrible time!”. What’s going on the US is weirder than a “normal” economic problem. That’s what makes it so frustrating and politically polarizing.
  - lazyeye 2y ago
    Sorry but quoting the NYTimes as evidence would be no different from a Republican quoting Fox News as evidence to you. Here's an old quote from the author, the esteemable Paul Krugman “The growth of the Internet will slow drastically, as the flaw in ‘Metcalfe’s law’—which states that the number of potential connections in a network is proportional to the square of the number of participants—becomes apparent: most people have nothing to say to each other! By 2005 or so, it will become clear that the Internet’s impact on the economy has been no greater than the fax machine’s.”
    - lazyeye 2y ago
      Here's another mea culpa from Paul Krugman (he was wrong about globalization). What Economists (Including Me) Got Wrong About Globalization https://archive.md/DrJKm https://archive.md/DrJKm If you stick up a liquor and kill a couple of people you go to jail for life. If you advocate for polices that destroy the local economies of middle America with all the ills that ensue...social breakdown, drug addiction/overdoses, crime etc. Well you get to write a mea culpa and then head off to a nice dinner at your favorite NY restaurant I guess.
    - HEmanZ 2y ago
      I linked this article because it summarizes why the data is weird and links to multiple sources, and frames the problem in a way that can be engaged with in a relatively short format. I find it telling that instead of arguing with data, points presented, or any source of counter argument, you act like the only argument in this article is “it’s right because I say so.” Much easier to dismiss a position as “can’t be right because you were wrong on something before” than actually think I guess.
      - lazyeye 2y ago
        Clearly the American people did see a problem with inflation and voted accordingly. And no matter how they try to spin it to support a particular political narrative, that won't change. There are so many ways to spin the numbers to make them support an argument. I'm not an economist so am in no position to assess (and I'm guessing neither are you). But given the track record (bias) of the NYT, I'm always going to be a bit suspicious.
        HEmanZ 2y ago
        Honestly I wasn’t even approaching this with right vs left in mind. I spend most of my voice on this subject talking down my liberal friends off a cliff. The right and the left tend to think the economy has never been worse and it’s all X fault. Here’s the same jist from the economist: https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/10/17/americas-economy-is-bigger-and-better-than-ever https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/10/17/americas-econom... If you want the thoughtful, smart, very right wing source on it, then check out the Cato institute: https://www.cato.org/commentary/americans-grim-views-decent-us-economy-are-perfectly-understandable https://www.cato.org/commentary/americans-grim-views-decent-.... Which tries to explain it as basically “people get really mad about inflation even if technically as a whole they are better off”. But the Cato economists still concede that overall the economy is/was doing extremely well and things are improving for people that by standard economic measures looks really good.

slg 2y ago

Statements like this seem to originate in that environment polluted by propaganda that the previous comment mentions. For example, I genuinely don't know how someone can look at something like the dismantling of USAID as anything but an increase in "large pain". Sure, there are almost certainly individual programs within that organization that are wasteful and aren't the best use of our tax dollars, but there is (or at least was as of a few weeks ago) broad bipartisan support for this type of investment in humanity and stopping it will clearly inflict pain on people and this administration is at best indifferent to that pain.

HEmanZ 2y ago
Just using your example tho, I feel there are two kinds of framing. 1. This is literally a worse outcome than the alternative you prefer. You should care enough to try to fight it politically, especially if you are well positioned to do so. 2. This case (and 99% of cases of political outrage I see on the news) is trivial in the context of what is “normal” for human political history, even the political history that many people alive today were around for. Will this even register as a trivia question in 100 years? Is a framing I ask myself when I’m mad about something in the world. I think a lot of people walked from a world where they had no idea what the normal tumult of human political society is like, even normal American political messiness, and into the world of 24/7 current political news without any context what came before. It’s like, the sausage has always been made this way, you’re just now finding out. I say these things and it always pisses people off. But I don’t recommend not caring, the world moves forward one micrometer at a time by caring, it’s just not worth the existential angst I see so often.
- slg 2y ago
  >2. This case (and 99% of cases of political outrage I see on the news) is trivial in the context of what is “normal” for human political history, even the political history that many people alive today were around for. >Will this even register as a trivia question in 100 years? Is a framing I ask myself when I’m mad about something in the world. To me, this is an utterly nihilistic framing that renders one's entire life meaningless because the logic doesn't just apply to bad things. Like why did you even leave this comment? Maybe you or I remember for a little while. Maybe a handful of other people who read it will too. But no one is going to remember it, let alone genuinely care about what either of us said 100 years from now.

guelo 2y ago

I need examples

scelerat 2y ago

Examples, please. If you are trans, you were just de-personed by executive order and your passport was invalidated. If you also happened to be an incarcerated female, you are being transferred to male facilities. These are actions which will have life-altering consequences. That's only one thing among many others (ICE immigrant raids which also sweep up legal immigrants and citizens who don't "look American") just in the first few days. What "large pain" are you talking about?

genewitch 2y ago
so things that affect less than 1% in the former and less than 0.01% in the latter, of the population, that's what we're basing "large pain" on? I'm not entirely sure you want to play this game. edit: and vis a vis the USAID thing the former president of Kenya summed it up "Why you are crying? you don't pay american taxes! we need to take care of ourselves!" https://www.msn.com/en-xl/africa/other/us-aid-suspension-wake-up-call-for-africa-ex-kenya-president/ar-AA1y6tUF https://www.msn.com/en-xl/africa/other/us-aid-suspension-wak...
- blackle 2y ago
  Any percentage of people being de-personed is bad. If the state is permitted to withhold travel documents of people indefinitely (and the supporting documents they sent in to get their passport renewed[1]), do you really live in a free state? Also, and I know people knee-jerk at the comparison, but historically speaking Jews comprised less than 1% of the population of Weimar Germany.[2] The smallness of the percentage shouldn't be cause to dismiss the harm of their discrimination as "no big deal." It's been shown where that leads. [1] https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/news/2025/01/28/state-department-passport-gender-marker/77976486007/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/news/2025/01/28/state-... [2] https://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/pdf/eng/JEW_RELIGIONZUGEHTABELLE_ENG.pdf https://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/pdf/eng/JEW_RELIGIONZUG...
  - philwelch 2y ago
    No US citizen is unable to get a passport. The only issue is that their passport needs to reflect their biological sex rather than their gender identity. I personally think this policy is excessive but nobody is being "de-personed".