5 ms·

I live in a city and buy most of my fresh produce, meat, and dairy from local farms.

by jghn 2y ago

phil21 2y ago
Which is not scalable for the entire big city. My parents are organic market gardeners, and there is simply no way that model could scale up enough to feed that many people cheaply. Food budgets would have to go back to the 1940's or earlier - where they were a significant fraction of take home pay. Now they are almost a rounding error comparatively. I don't necessarily think that would be a bad thing. A lot of the asset price inflation like homes can be tracked to food and consumer goods taking an increasingly lesser portion of the family budget. Re-balancing this seems wise to me.
- jghn 2y ago
  You put your finger on what I think is the real issue: whether or not access to cheap food is a net benefit or not. I also won't claim to have the perfect answer but do feel we've gone at least a bit too far in one direction.
  - cj 2y ago
    I think we've only "gone too far" in the sense that cheap food also means unhealthy food, generally. Access to cheap food would be wonderful if it were healthy! Unfortunately the cheapest food is typically the worst food for your health.
    - jghn 2y ago
      Yes, and I think it goes beyond "healthy", depending on one's definition. Part of it is also that "cheap" tends to lead to monocultures and other patterns that are more easily disrupted. An example being the Cavendish banana, which for most of the western world is the only thing they know of when the word "banana" is mentioned. And now the banana supply of a large part of the world is in danger of going extinct [1] And there's also ecological health. "Cheap" tends to promote mass production in certain areas and shipping everywhere. "Cheap" tends to promote less sustainable farming practices. That sort of thing. [1] https://www.foodandwine.com/banana-extinction-8715118 https://www.foodandwine.com/banana-extinction-8715118
- mrguyorama 2y ago
  >Food budgets would have to go back to the 1940's or earlier - where they were a significant fraction of take home pay. Now they are almost a rounding error comparatively. You are demonstrating your privilege. I am pretty frugal and my INDIVIDUAL food cost is like $100 a week, or 10% of my take home pay, and while I make peanuts compared to most in tech, I make more than the average adult. USDA stats say the average numbers are closer to $500 a month and 11% of gross salary, and also: >households in the lowest income quintile spent an average of $5,278 on food (representing 32.6 percent of after-tax income).
- bdangubic 2y ago
  Now they are almost a rounding error comparatively. ballparking I’d need about low 7-figure after tax pay for my food budget to qualify as a rounding error…
  - Retric 2y ago
    Almost a round error comparatively doesn’t mean it’s 0.01%. People used to spend ~30% of their income on mass produced basic staple foods with very little meat they cooked at home. You can live like that on like 1$/day. Median household income is over 80k today so we are talking more than an older of magnitude price reduction. Get regular meal delivery etc and sure you can spend crazy money but it’s not really spending that money on food itself.
    - bdangubic 2y ago
      family of 3, never ordered delivery in my life outside of pizza once in a blue moon and eating out no more than twice per month - food bill $1,900-ish / month
      - Retric 2y ago
        That’s over 20$/day per person. All 3 of you could literally eat exclusively fast food in most of the US on that budget. You’re not just paying for food here. One possibility is you’re talking things you buy at the grocery store here, but laundry detergent is’t food. So what’s the actual deal here.
        bdangubic 2y ago
        eating healthy… eggs are $14/dozen and all that “inflation” jazz
        Retric 2y ago
        The article is literally about eggs being 7$/dozen, which is an egg specific price spike. Even assuming you’re spending twice as much on eggs it just doesn’t add up to over 20$/day. Flour is 0.50$/lb, lettuce is 3$/lb, butter is 5$/lb, etc. Even a 3,000 calories per day you’re well under that.
Cthulhu_ 2y ago
Cool, but that's not an option for many people; how long does it take you to get there, and what transportation do you have available to you?

I live in a city and buy most of my fresh produce, meat, and dairy from local farms.

by jghn 2y ago

I live in a city and buy most of my fresh produce, meat, and dairy from local farms.

Which is not scalable for the entire big city. My parents are organic market gardeners, and there is simply no way that model could scale up enough to feed that many people cheaply. Food budgets would have to go back to the 1940's or earlier - where they were a significant fraction of take home pay. Now they are almost a rounding error comparatively. I don't necessarily think that would be a bad thing. A lot of the asset price inflation like homes can be tracked to food and consumer goods taking an increasingly lesser portion of the family budget. Re-balancing this seems wise to me.

jghn 2y ago
You put your finger on what I think is the real issue: whether or not access to cheap food is a net benefit or not. I also won't claim to have the perfect answer but do feel we've gone at least a bit too far in one direction.
- cj 2y ago
  I think we've only "gone too far" in the sense that cheap food also means unhealthy food, generally. Access to cheap food would be wonderful if it were healthy! Unfortunately the cheapest food is typically the worst food for your health.
  - jghn 2y ago
    Yes, and I think it goes beyond "healthy", depending on one's definition. Part of it is also that "cheap" tends to lead to monocultures and other patterns that are more easily disrupted. An example being the Cavendish banana, which for most of the western world is the only thing they know of when the word "banana" is mentioned. And now the banana supply of a large part of the world is in danger of going extinct [1] And there's also ecological health. "Cheap" tends to promote mass production in certain areas and shipping everywhere. "Cheap" tends to promote less sustainable farming practices. That sort of thing. [1] https://www.foodandwine.com/banana-extinction-8715118 https://www.foodandwine.com/banana-extinction-8715118
mrguyorama 2y ago
>Food budgets would have to go back to the 1940's or earlier - where they were a significant fraction of take home pay. Now they are almost a rounding error comparatively. You are demonstrating your privilege. I am pretty frugal and my INDIVIDUAL food cost is like $100 a week, or 10% of my take home pay, and while I make peanuts compared to most in tech, I make more than the average adult. USDA stats say the average numbers are closer to $500 a month and 11% of gross salary, and also: >households in the lowest income quintile spent an average of $5,278 on food (representing 32.6 percent of after-tax income).
bdangubic 2y ago
Now they are almost a rounding error comparatively. ballparking I’d need about low 7-figure after tax pay for my food budget to qualify as a rounding error…
- Retric 2y ago
  Almost a round error comparatively doesn’t mean it’s 0.01%. People used to spend ~30% of their income on mass produced basic staple foods with very little meat they cooked at home. You can live like that on like 1$/day. Median household income is over 80k today so we are talking more than an older of magnitude price reduction. Get regular meal delivery etc and sure you can spend crazy money but it’s not really spending that money on food itself.
  - bdangubic 2y ago
    family of 3, never ordered delivery in my life outside of pizza once in a blue moon and eating out no more than twice per month - food bill $1,900-ish / month
    - Retric 2y ago
      That’s over 20$/day per person. All 3 of you could literally eat exclusively fast food in most of the US on that budget. You’re not just paying for food here. One possibility is you’re talking things you buy at the grocery store here, but laundry detergent is’t food. So what’s the actual deal here.
      - bdangubic 2y ago
        eating healthy… eggs are $14/dozen and all that “inflation” jazz
        Retric 2y ago
        The article is literally about eggs being 7$/dozen, which is an egg specific price spike. Even assuming you’re spending twice as much on eggs it just doesn’t add up to over 20$/day. Flour is 0.50$/lb, lettuce is 3$/lb, butter is 5$/lb, etc. Even a 3,000 calories per day you’re well under that.

Cthulhu_ 2y ago

Cool, but that's not an option for many people; how long does it take you to get there, and what transportation do you have available to you?