5 ms·

> Taking old, resolved scandals The lawsuit is still ongoing. The scandal has not yet resolved.

legitster 2y ago
No, but the problematic assessment in question was eliminated by congress in 2016. That would not explain the FAA's current recruitment problems.
- stackskipton 2y ago
  ATC training and dropout rate is so long and high, that mistakes made 8-9 years ago could still be impactful.
  - clutchdude 2y ago
    COVID would likely have a bigger hand in the current issues than mistakes from 10-15 years ago though. I found it somewhat puzzling we discuss ATC staffing and don't mention it: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2024-05-01/paving-way-controller-ramp https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2024-0... > When training at the academy resumed in July 2020, after the four-month shutdown, class sizes were cut in half to meet the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s social distancing guidelines. > The pandemic hit controller hiring and training hard with on-the-job training for developmental controllers significantly dropping at facilities, resulting in delayed certification. In fiscal year 2021, the controller hiring target was dropped from 910 to 500. > Since then, the FAA has been working to restore the training pipeline to full capacity. The agency’s Controller Workforce 2023/2032 Plan had a hiring target of 1,020 in FY 2022 (actual hires were 1,026) and 1,500 in FY 2023. The is set to increase to 1,800 in the current fiscal year.
    - stackskipton 2y ago
      Yep, COVID didn't help either. However, I'll note that hiring != actual ATC controllers because drop/fail rate which for some insane reason is so hard to find.
      - dgfitz 2y ago
        I'll never find it, but a few days ago someone here posted an anecdotal story that class sizes were between 10-20 and failure/drop rate was ~50%.
        reginald78 2y ago
        I probably read the same thing, the most galling to me wasn't the failure rate it was that once you've failed you can never reapply.
        robocat 2y ago
        For some jobs, your aptitude should matter. If a test has some discriminating power between people with aptitude and those without aptitude, then perhaps failing that test should really matter. For ATC staff perhaps OCD-adjacent traits are good and ADD-adjacent traits are bad. Maybe you don't want someone with epilepsy in ATC even though that's unfair. Maybe we all want to be Olympic athletes and a few work hard to become so, but what should happen if we lack some necessary skill?
        dgfitz 2y ago
        US lawyers get multiple attempts to take the bar exam, as an example. Should they?
        stackskipton 2y ago
        Bar exam is different because it's just taking a test. Testing is really easy to scale. This is more not allowing something who dropped out of law school due to academics to be readmitted because law school slots are precious if your goal is to make X amount of lawyers per year.
        varloid 2y ago
        Across 2023 and 2024 the en route academy pass rate was ~66% and terminal pass rate was ~73%. Of that, ~25% of en route trainees fail at their facility and ~15-20% of terminal trainees fail at their facility. There are ~2 en route trainees per terminal trainee.
    - briandear 2y ago
      It wasn’t “Covid” — it was the vaccine mandate.
hitekker 2y ago
Yes, the scandal is not over because the FAA continued to conflate diversity with performance. In 2023, the FAA set several, major goals for DEIA initiatives and only one target for hiring more Air Traffic controllers. https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/FY23%20OSI-M%20and%20%20CSTI%20Corporate%20Goal%20AOA%20Approval%20Memo%20with%20list%20%20Dec%2022%20Final.pdf https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/FY23%20OSI-M%20and%2... Or from 2021, where they wrote "Diversity + Inclusion = Better Performance" https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/acr/Day2_Session6_deia_final.pdf https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/about/office_org/hea... Too many examples. Compared to 2016, the FAA of the 2020s was better at hiding their written bias. Nonetheless, they failed to attract the talent they needed.

No, but the problematic assessment in question was eliminated by congress in 2016. That would not explain the FAA's current recruitment problems.

stackskipton 2y ago
ATC training and dropout rate is so long and high, that mistakes made 8-9 years ago could still be impactful.
- clutchdude 2y ago
  COVID would likely have a bigger hand in the current issues than mistakes from 10-15 years ago though. I found it somewhat puzzling we discuss ATC staffing and don't mention it: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2024-05-01/paving-way-controller-ramp https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2024-0... > When training at the academy resumed in July 2020, after the four-month shutdown, class sizes were cut in half to meet the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s social distancing guidelines. > The pandemic hit controller hiring and training hard with on-the-job training for developmental controllers significantly dropping at facilities, resulting in delayed certification. In fiscal year 2021, the controller hiring target was dropped from 910 to 500. > Since then, the FAA has been working to restore the training pipeline to full capacity. The agency’s Controller Workforce 2023/2032 Plan had a hiring target of 1,020 in FY 2022 (actual hires were 1,026) and 1,500 in FY 2023. The is set to increase to 1,800 in the current fiscal year.
  - stackskipton 2y ago
    Yep, COVID didn't help either. However, I'll note that hiring != actual ATC controllers because drop/fail rate which for some insane reason is so hard to find.
    - dgfitz 2y ago
      I'll never find it, but a few days ago someone here posted an anecdotal story that class sizes were between 10-20 and failure/drop rate was ~50%.
      - reginald78 2y ago
        I probably read the same thing, the most galling to me wasn't the failure rate it was that once you've failed you can never reapply.
        robocat 2y ago
        For some jobs, your aptitude should matter. If a test has some discriminating power between people with aptitude and those without aptitude, then perhaps failing that test should really matter. For ATC staff perhaps OCD-adjacent traits are good and ADD-adjacent traits are bad. Maybe you don't want someone with epilepsy in ATC even though that's unfair. Maybe we all want to be Olympic athletes and a few work hard to become so, but what should happen if we lack some necessary skill?
        dgfitz 2y ago
        US lawyers get multiple attempts to take the bar exam, as an example. Should they?
        stackskipton 2y ago
        Bar exam is different because it's just taking a test. Testing is really easy to scale. This is more not allowing something who dropped out of law school due to academics to be readmitted because law school slots are precious if your goal is to make X amount of lawyers per year.
      - varloid 2y ago
        Across 2023 and 2024 the en route academy pass rate was ~66% and terminal pass rate was ~73%. Of that, ~25% of en route trainees fail at their facility and ~15-20% of terminal trainees fail at their facility. There are ~2 en route trainees per terminal trainee.
  - briandear 2y ago
    It wasn’t “Covid” — it was the vaccine mandate.

hitekker 2y ago

Yes, the scandal is not over because the FAA continued to conflate diversity with performance. In 2023, the FAA set several, major goals for DEIA initiatives and only one target for hiring more Air Traffic controllers. https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/FY23%20OSI-M%20and%20%20CSTI%20Corporate%20Goal%20AOA%20Approval%20Memo%20with%20list%20%20Dec%2022%20Final.pdf https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/FY23%20OSI-M%20and%2... Or from 2021, where they wrote "Diversity + Inclusion = Better Performance" https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/acr/Day2_Session6_deia_final.pdf https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/about/office_org/hea... Too many examples. Compared to 2016, the FAA of the 2020s was better at hiding their written bias. Nonetheless, they failed to attract the talent they needed.