6 ms·

Fiwix: Small Unix-Like Kernel

79 points by coolcoder613 2y ago

Rochus 2y ago
What's the difference to e.g. xv6? There are already so many Unix like operating systems of all sizes written in C (e.g. Minix, xv6, BSD, Darwin, Hurd, Lemon, MentOS, SanOS). If I were to go to such an effort, I would try another language, or even my own (like e.g. Bunnix written in Hare). It is meanwhile more than clear that it can be done in C. But C is not really a good programming language (weird syntax, incomplete type checking, many specification gaps, etc.), so it would actually be more interesting to explore the suitability of other languages for such a task.
- sjsdaiuasgdia 2y ago
  When you write one, you can make those choices however you like. This target was sufficiently interesting to the people who pursued it. It doesn't have to meet your arbitrary standards.
  - Rochus 2y ago
    Unfortunately, your comment neither answers my question nor is it helpful in relation to the other arguments.
    - sjsdaiuasgdia 2y ago
      Other people's hobbies don't have to align to your priorities. In other words: https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/043/517/i_don't_like_thing_comic_by_jobeeart.jpg https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/043/517/i_d...
      - Rochus 2y ago
        I asked out of interest and explained my point of view, imposing neither standards nor priorities. Why are you reacting so hostile to a question? Isn't it rather your intention to enforce your "standard" for questions and opinions that suit you?
        IgorPartola 2y ago
        You are asking a question that doesn’t make sense. It seems like to you it does, and to others it sounds like “what does the color blue taste like?” People do stuff for fun. It doesn’t have to be useful. Or it can be useful to them because it isn’t the existing thing. xv6 is great, this is different. It makes different choices and studying the differences can be a good thing. Comparing two different pieces of software written in the same language is sometimes exactly what you want. The logic of “something similar already exists so don’t bother” is reductive. I am sure 99% of hobbyist software is useless to anyone but the person who wrote it. It still helps people learn and become professionals. Remember a few weeks ago there was a post here by a high school student detailing building a laptop from scratch. Was that wasted effort because you can just buy a laptop? Was Linux wasted effort? Why does this project offend you so much that you keep commenting on it in such a negative way?
        Rochus 2y ago
        > Comparing two different pieces of software written in the same language is sometimes exactly what you want. And here we are at my question, which obviously makes sense. So what's the difference to xv6? Why did the author consider it important to implement yet another unix-like system in C? What is the core benefit of this specific kernel? The website doesn't provide an answer. > that you keep commenting on it in such a negative way? That is a false accusation. I have not said anything negative about this project.
        rangerelf 2y ago
        I think it's a cool project even though I have no interest in downloading and running it, but it's a technological curiosity that might yield some insight of other things. If you're so hell-bent on knowing what differentiates Fiwix from xv6 why don't you download the projects and compare them? You shouldn't be asking others to do your work for you, or to justify their choices and actions to you.
        Rochus 2y ago
- dkenyser 2y ago
  > since it serves also for educational purposes, the kernel code is kept as simple as possible for the benefit of students and OS enthusiasts
  - Rochus 2y ago
    Same as e.g. xv6.
- Paul-Craft 2y ago
  This one is just a hobby (won't be big and professional like gnu), after all. ;-)
  - Rochus 2y ago
    Most other mentioned are also just hobby kernels; actually also Linux and BSD started that way.
    - homarp 2y ago
      parent is quoting this https://fossbytes.com/linus-torvaldss-famous-email-first-linux-announcement/ https://fossbytes.com/linus-torvaldss-famous-email-first-lin...
  - glonq 2y ago
    I hope this newcomer Fiwix doesn't steal too much mindshare away from HURD...
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- BirAdam 2y ago
  C has been the standard system language almost since the time of its creation. Teaching that standard is valuable even if we’re in the midst of a change. As for why, a system designed to be pedantic will necessarily be different from one intending to be production ready. Why i386 and BIOS? It is simple enough for the purpose of teaching. Inundating a student with modern x86-64, UEFI (where most implementations do not meet standards), and such is not a great idea. People just get overwhelmed and shut down. It may be worthwhile to start with something simpler honestly, like DOS and 8088, or even CP/M and 8080. Working one up through time exposes the individual to simpler things and then progressively more complex things. It is useful. As a side benefit, teaching people about these older things instructs them on how and why things came to be the way they are which may help create better entrepreneurs.
  - Rochus 2y ago
    > even if we’re in the midst of a change. What change do you refer to? Concerning C: C has obviously proven itself in countless system and embedded projects of all sizes. Nevertheless, C essentially represents the state of knowledge of the early seventies. Projects like the one discussed would be a good opportunity to test newer languages for their suitability for operating system and embedded development, without the pressure of a commercial project. > Why i386 and BIOS? It is simple enough for the purpose of teaching. Agree; that's also one of the reasons operating systems like xv6 dedicated for teaching do so; I'm therefore interested in how Fiwix positions itself in relation to xv6.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    C was hardly seen as systems language in 8 and 16 bit home computers, just one more to chose from, as most compute intensive stuff was actually still written in Assembly.
    - BirAdam 2y ago
      Microcomputers weren't the dominant computer type in the 70s and very early 80s.
      - 2y ago
- pabs3 2y ago
  IIRC Fiwix has syscalls compatible with Linux, which could be useful in some cases.
  - Rochus 2y ago
    Thanks for the first useful answer so far. Does this mean that Fiwix would allow ELF binaries compiled for Linux to be executed natively in a Fiwix system without emulation? Have you tried this?
    - pabs3 2y ago
      I think that is correct, depending on how modern the syscalls used are I guess. I expect it doesn't implement a lot of them. I haven't tried it though.
PeterWhittaker 2y ago
Interesting. While I do appreciate that it runs on i386, I have to question its being aimed at students - or at least students of anything other than the history of computing. i386 implies BIOS, AFAIK, and requires pre-x86_64 assembler, which is only partially transferable to modern CPUs. Oh, for sure, one would learn an awful lot working with those technologies, but as soon as one wished to work on more modern systems, one would have to forgot all of the former and all the ugly of the latter. This isn't really a criticism, more an expression of puzzlement. Normally, I'm a pretty good contrarian, but I don't get it. True, there was this Finn who did this some time ago and it worked out pretty well, but I still don't get why anyone would start with i386 and BIOS.
- MisterTea 2y ago
  > i386 implies BIOS, AFAIK, and requires pre-x86_64 assembler, which is only partially transferable to modern CPUs. Nothing wrong with this IMO. You dont want a 64-bit Arm/x86 hegemony. If the OS is designed properly you won't notice the platform underneath which means you have the right abstractions. That is an important challenge for students - decoupling platform dependency from the OS architecture. It also teaches them older tech which gives them a history lesson so they understand how and why we got here.
  - 6SixTy 2y ago
    If a 64 bit ARM/x86 hegemony is a big concern, then why not drop i386 and go with RISC-V? There's both a 32 and 64 bit variants, and a free emulator. Also, it's more useful academically and practically.
    - MisterTea 2y ago
      Well Risc-v isn't as established as 32bit x86 which has a wide breadth of information available. There are also plenty of 32 bit x86 machines still around so testing your OS on real hardware and watching your programs work is quite a treat.
      - 2y ago
bitwize 2y ago
Just a hobby, not big and professional like GNU. I love it.
pabs3 2y ago
In use by the Bootstrappable Builds folks to be able to build the Linux kernel before having a Linux or other kernel binary, since Linux requires compilers that are only bootstrapped later in the process. https://bootstrappable.org/ https://bootstrappable.org/ https://lwn.net/Articles/983340/ https://lwn.net/Articles/983340/

79 points by coolcoder613 2y ago

What's the difference to e.g. xv6? There are already so many Unix like operating systems of all sizes written in C (e.g. Minix, xv6, BSD, Darwin, Hurd, Lemon, MentOS, SanOS). If I were to go to such an effort, I would try another language, or even my own (like e.g. Bunnix written in Hare). It is meanwhile more than clear that it can be done in C. But C is not really a good programming language (weird syntax, incomplete type checking, many specification gaps, etc.), so it would actually be more interesting to explore the suitability of other languages for such a task.

sjsdaiuasgdia 2y ago
When you write one, you can make those choices however you like. This target was sufficiently interesting to the people who pursued it. It doesn't have to meet your arbitrary standards.
- Rochus 2y ago
  Unfortunately, your comment neither answers my question nor is it helpful in relation to the other arguments.
  - sjsdaiuasgdia 2y ago
    Other people's hobbies don't have to align to your priorities. In other words: https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/043/517/i_don't_like_thing_comic_by_jobeeart.jpg https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/043/517/i_d...
    - Rochus 2y ago
      I asked out of interest and explained my point of view, imposing neither standards nor priorities. Why are you reacting so hostile to a question? Isn't it rather your intention to enforce your "standard" for questions and opinions that suit you?
      - IgorPartola 2y ago
        You are asking a question that doesn’t make sense. It seems like to you it does, and to others it sounds like “what does the color blue taste like?” People do stuff for fun. It doesn’t have to be useful. Or it can be useful to them because it isn’t the existing thing. xv6 is great, this is different. It makes different choices and studying the differences can be a good thing. Comparing two different pieces of software written in the same language is sometimes exactly what you want. The logic of “something similar already exists so don’t bother” is reductive. I am sure 99% of hobbyist software is useless to anyone but the person who wrote it. It still helps people learn and become professionals. Remember a few weeks ago there was a post here by a high school student detailing building a laptop from scratch. Was that wasted effort because you can just buy a laptop? Was Linux wasted effort? Why does this project offend you so much that you keep commenting on it in such a negative way?
        Rochus 2y ago
        > Comparing two different pieces of software written in the same language is sometimes exactly what you want. And here we are at my question, which obviously makes sense. So what's the difference to xv6? Why did the author consider it important to implement yet another unix-like system in C? What is the core benefit of this specific kernel? The website doesn't provide an answer. > that you keep commenting on it in such a negative way? That is a false accusation. I have not said anything negative about this project.
        rangerelf 2y ago
        I think it's a cool project even though I have no interest in downloading and running it, but it's a technological curiosity that might yield some insight of other things. If you're so hell-bent on knowing what differentiates Fiwix from xv6 why don't you download the projects and compare them? You shouldn't be asking others to do your work for you, or to justify their choices and actions to you.
        Rochus 2y ago
dkenyser 2y ago
> since it serves also for educational purposes, the kernel code is kept as simple as possible for the benefit of students and OS enthusiasts
- Rochus 2y ago
  Same as e.g. xv6.
Paul-Craft 2y ago
This one is just a hobby (won't be big and professional like gnu), after all. ;-)
- Rochus 2y ago
  Most other mentioned are also just hobby kernels; actually also Linux and BSD started that way.
  - homarp 2y ago
    parent is quoting this https://fossbytes.com/linus-torvaldss-famous-email-first-linux-announcement/ https://fossbytes.com/linus-torvaldss-famous-email-first-lin...
- glonq 2y ago
  I hope this newcomer Fiwix doesn't steal too much mindshare away from HURD...
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
BirAdam 2y ago
C has been the standard system language almost since the time of its creation. Teaching that standard is valuable even if we’re in the midst of a change. As for why, a system designed to be pedantic will necessarily be different from one intending to be production ready. Why i386 and BIOS? It is simple enough for the purpose of teaching. Inundating a student with modern x86-64, UEFI (where most implementations do not meet standards), and such is not a great idea. People just get overwhelmed and shut down. It may be worthwhile to start with something simpler honestly, like DOS and 8088, or even CP/M and 8080. Working one up through time exposes the individual to simpler things and then progressively more complex things. It is useful. As a side benefit, teaching people about these older things instructs them on how and why things came to be the way they are which may help create better entrepreneurs.
- Rochus 2y ago
  > even if we’re in the midst of a change. What change do you refer to? Concerning C: C has obviously proven itself in countless system and embedded projects of all sizes. Nevertheless, C essentially represents the state of knowledge of the early seventies. Projects like the one discussed would be a good opportunity to test newer languages for their suitability for operating system and embedded development, without the pressure of a commercial project. > Why i386 and BIOS? It is simple enough for the purpose of teaching. Agree; that's also one of the reasons operating systems like xv6 dedicated for teaching do so; I'm therefore interested in how Fiwix positions itself in relation to xv6.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  C was hardly seen as systems language in 8 and 16 bit home computers, just one more to chose from, as most compute intensive stuff was actually still written in Assembly.
  - BirAdam 2y ago
    Microcomputers weren't the dominant computer type in the 70s and very early 80s.
    - 2y ago
pabs3 2y ago
IIRC Fiwix has syscalls compatible with Linux, which could be useful in some cases.
- Rochus 2y ago
  Thanks for the first useful answer so far. Does this mean that Fiwix would allow ELF binaries compiled for Linux to be executed natively in a Fiwix system without emulation? Have you tried this?
  - pabs3 2y ago
    I think that is correct, depending on how modern the syscalls used are I guess. I expect it doesn't implement a lot of them. I haven't tried it though.

PeterWhittaker 2y ago

Interesting. While I do appreciate that it runs on i386, I have to question its being aimed at students - or at least students of anything other than the history of computing. i386 implies BIOS, AFAIK, and requires pre-x86_64 assembler, which is only partially transferable to modern CPUs. Oh, for sure, one would learn an awful lot working with those technologies, but as soon as one wished to work on more modern systems, one would have to forgot all of the former and all the ugly of the latter. This isn't really a criticism, more an expression of puzzlement. Normally, I'm a pretty good contrarian, but I don't get it. True, there was this Finn who did this some time ago and it worked out pretty well, but I still don't get why anyone would start with i386 and BIOS.

MisterTea 2y ago
> i386 implies BIOS, AFAIK, and requires pre-x86_64 assembler, which is only partially transferable to modern CPUs. Nothing wrong with this IMO. You dont want a 64-bit Arm/x86 hegemony. If the OS is designed properly you won't notice the platform underneath which means you have the right abstractions. That is an important challenge for students - decoupling platform dependency from the OS architecture. It also teaches them older tech which gives them a history lesson so they understand how and why we got here.
- 6SixTy 2y ago
  If a 64 bit ARM/x86 hegemony is a big concern, then why not drop i386 and go with RISC-V? There's both a 32 and 64 bit variants, and a free emulator. Also, it's more useful academically and practically.
  - MisterTea 2y ago
    Well Risc-v isn't as established as 32bit x86 which has a wide breadth of information available. There are also plenty of 32 bit x86 machines still around so testing your OS on real hardware and watching your programs work is quite a treat.
    - 2y ago

bitwize 2y ago

Just a hobby, not big and professional like GNU. I love it.

pabs3 2y ago

In use by the Bootstrappable Builds folks to be able to build the Linux kernel before having a Linux or other kernel binary, since Linux requires compilers that are only bootstrapped later in the process. https://bootstrappable.org/ https://bootstrappable.org/ https://lwn.net/Articles/983340/ https://lwn.net/Articles/983340/