7 ms·

Insomnia, Control

72 points by rpastuszak 2y ago

Aurornis 2y ago
Insomnia often responds very well to therapy techniques, but this requires the person to be open to the idea that therapy techniques can help. A common challenge is that people think they’ve “tried everything” already and therefore therapy suggestions are equivalent to dismissing the seriousness of their problem. It can take a self-discovery like this article describes to bring someone back around to the idea that the condition is related to something like anxiety or obsessive behaviors and is receptive to behavioral modification. > I'd just skip the night and take my sweet time to: write, draw, practice calligraphy, code a little toy, make a little sculpture from a scrap of wood. Importantly, none of these activities involve entering the ragebait vortex that exists in most people’s Internet time wasting destinations. For many people it’s enough to just cut out Reddit or similar sites in the evening.
- Schiendelman 2y ago
  You're so right. It's amazing how many people have this pattern for so many problems in their lives. "I've tried everything" / "I've tried that before" - and then closed to variations or investigation. If you have this habit it's always worth solving.
  - xattt 2y ago
    … but I’ve tried to break this habit before and it’s not working!
    - Schiendelman 2y ago
      Hah! Exactly. It's turtles all the way down - people can't see their own patterns. This is why therapy is SO important for everyone.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
almost_usual 2y ago
Everyone is different but I was able to channel my creativity and have it at other times in the day rather than 8pm and unravel into the later evening and early morning. Waking up at 4AM everyday for a rigorous workout was necessary. Intense strength training or running a 5K at minimum and being done by 5AM. Sobriety as well to stick to the schedule with 6-7hrs of sleep. It works for me though.
- Schiendelman 2y ago
  I think in this case we know enough about biology to not even have to say "everyone is different" - regular exercise and regular wake times, combined with no alcohol, help anyone's sleep.
  - silotis 2y ago
    Eh, I've found my insomnia to be largely independent of the amount of exercise I get. I can run 5 km during the day and still only manage 3-4 hours the next night.
    - Aurornis 2y ago
      The key was “regular exercise”. It’s not as simple as exercising once and having insomnia cured immediately for that night. It’s about lifestyle changes and adaptation to those changes over long periods.
      - silotis 2y ago
        I have a regular exercise routine I do every day. Believe it or not some people still have insomnia even when they follow all the usual lifestyle advise.
        1986 2y ago
        I find that I actually sleep worse the night I've worked out (3x / week)
huijzer 2y ago
> take a hot shower before bed I don’t know whether it was sensible for the author but for people with sleeping problems here: in general it’s probably not a good idea to take a shower before going to bed. Warm showers can feel relaxing but also increase the body temperature even though it should be lowering before sleep. Conversely, cold showers can stimulate the nervous system.
- Schiendelman 2y ago
  Given the author and their relationship with anxiety(?) and control, it's entirely possible it's harmful to their sleep, but they haven't tried not doing it for long enough to really validate.
- picture 2y ago
  Seconding this. I found out that I get mini-nightmares and get woken up if I try to sleep immediately after a hot shower, so I switched to morning showers. This also helps me set a hard wake up time since the shower gets me awake
- n4r9 2y ago
  Hot showers are known to aid sleep, although it's generally assumed that the shower happens an hour or two before bedtime. That allows the body to cool down. Some evidence suggests that's it's not the total body temperature but the rate of cooling which actually helps with winding down. https://www.sleepfoundation.org/sleep-hygiene/shower-before-bed https://www.sleepfoundation.org/sleep-hygiene/shower-before-...
- 2-3-7-43-1807 2y ago
  wouldn't be surprised if warm showers actually lower the core temperature.
RevEng 2y ago
This idea of learning not to be anxious about insomnia is what CBT-I is all about. A lot of insomniacs are such because they worry about not sleeping, which keeps them awake. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. By learning to accept the prospect of a sleepless night, you allow yourself to relax and sleep. A lot of sleep anxiety can also be the result of generalized anxiety disorder, so it's worth considering therapy and/or medication. That anxiety can just be worries about your job, life, and other stressful environments, in which case improving your life conditions can alleviate the insomnia. There can be a lot of reasons for insomnia that aren't primary insomnia.
Waterluvian 2y ago
The only advice I’ll ever give on insomnia is to keep trying new things, and to go ask for help. I tried just about everything in terms of routine and ritual. Years and years of suffering and putting holes in basement drywall and believing I’m broken and increasingly frequent thoughts of suicide. And I hit a tipping point where the pain overcame my stupid stubbornness and I finally went and asked for help. “I don’t want Ambien or one of those life destroying drugs. I’d rather just go quietly” was my thinking and what I said to I the doctor. Introduced to a newish drug without significant side effects or addictiveness and it immediately changed my life. Sleep is now a feature as my dreams are incredibly vivid. It changed a family member’s life too. It didn’t do a thing for another close friend. Just keep trying things. Don’t give up.
- grandiego 2y ago
  Great for you! Could you give the name of such drug in order to ask some feedback from my doctor? Some years ago she prescribed one which got me sleeping but I woke up awfully tired (left after a week.)
  - Waterluvian 2y ago
    Lemborexant.
- melvinroest 2y ago
  > Just keep trying things. Don’t give up. I agree with this. For me, fixing insomnia has been my number one priority for the past 3 years. It's also a fairly easy priority as during the day you don't actually need to do a whole lot about it other than some reflection. So improvement is pretty slowgoing, simply because you only have 1000 iterations and you're already 3 years older
dosinga 2y ago
Given your self permission to do something and don't care about the sleep is interesting; I have done this, worked on something till 2am and then fall asleep and wake up refreshed at 9am
- zoklet-enjoyer 2y ago
  That's 7 hours of sleep. I'd be surprised if you didn't feel refreshed.
127 2y ago
This might be obvious and trivial to others, but alas. Going to bed early at a specified time, shutting down all computers well before that and just spending hours relaxing, did absolute wonders to the quality of my sleep. I'm using a smart watch to measure and the positive impact is an order of magnitude. At times I entertained the idea that I was an insomniac, but I was just stupid. I need to shut down all stimulus well before I intend to sleep or it might ruin my entire night.
- orev 2y ago
  Also stop all caffeine consumption after 2:00 at the latest.
  - balfirevic 2y ago
    People go to sleep and wake up at different times. Giving a fixed number makes no sense.
    - parpfish 2y ago
      And people have different caffeine sensitivities. Im one of the people that can have an after dinner espresso late at night with no effect. In fact, too much caffeine (like a large energy drink) often has the effect of knocking me out and I can barely keep my eyes open
- balfirevic 2y ago
  > and just spending hours relaxing How many hours?
- lazyeye 2y ago
  I set up a smart bulb to act as a "color clock" in the evening. Every day at 8pm it's orange, 9pm red, 10pm off (sleep time). The brightness is very low (dim glow) and all other lights are off. 8pm onwards is cool down time. I tend to read mainly after 9pm. It really calms you down and keeps you on a consistent sleep schedule without the angst of clock-watching. Highly recommended.
- 2y ago
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
melvinroest 2y ago
Since recently I have a fairly good control over my insomnia. Key points for me are tackling my biggest issues: __Issue 1: not wanting to go to bed__ By reflecting on the why and how, I can make myself go to bed much easier, even if I don't want to. It's just having a dialogue with myself __Issue 2: not falling asleep__ 1. Low dose of melatonin (0.3 mg): fixes the issue of falling asleep. I buy it in the Netherlands. It seems much better regulated than the US 2. Sometimes magnesium: fixes a bit of a restless leg issue I have sometimes __Issue 3: waking up after 4 hours of sleep and not falling asleep__ The issue is that I can't take melatonin anymore. I've noticed it makes me too woozy during the day. Here is what works for me: relax, slow down thoughts; shift hyper alertness to a cozy, euphoric and safe state; reducing social media addiction. Let's go through these ideas one by one 1. Relaxation through slow breathing: basic but important. I've noticed when I don't do this but do everything else, then I can still fall asleep but it's harder 2. Reducing the speed and frequency of thoughts through breathing meditation: if I think too much, I can't sleep. Breathing meditation (observing the breath) has taught me how to reduce my thoughts. Sometimes I don't even do breathing meditation but I just focus on lying still physically and mentally 3. Increasing feelings of coziness through mindfulness meditation: for me the biggest breakthrough has been the focus on coziness. Extreme coziness makes my consciousness drift away. So even if I don't fall asleep, I don't mind 4. Increasing feelings of euphoria through mindfulness meditation and thinking of pleasant thoughts: in my case that's about being at locations I like, with the people I love, doing things I find fun. This is in the same vein of "think of pleasant thoughts". Well, yea, but it needs to induce a mild euphoric effect which aids coziness 6. Increase feelings of safety by telling myself I am safe: simply telling myself I am safe makes me feel more safe. I never noticed that I felt unsafe or anything but telling myself I am safe makes me feel more safe. Safety increases coziness 7. Reducing the amount of waking up by reducing social media addiction: I don't have data, but the anecdotal evidence on my part is that I noticed I woke up more often when I was severely addicted to social media. I think in my case it's because whenever I wake up, I wake up with a lot of energy. So after 4 hours of sleep, I feel tremendously awake. I noticed that when I wanted (social) media entertainment that I felt even more restless. So my suspicion is that feeling restless for more entertainment can actually wake you up These are the strongest things I've noticed that are conductive to sleep for me, and I've tried a lot. I hope it helps someone. Almost no one talks about the feeling of coziness for me, but focusing on coziness is where it's at for me. Relaxation and pleasant thoughts are nice, but coziness is the main driver for me to fall asleep There are many more things I do such as knowing what sleeping position I sleep best in, controlling temperature, controlling light, controlling sound, eyemask, standing up when the sun rises, having a sleep journal where I write down every time I have had a bad night sleep or really good night of sleep. Anything surprising needs to be logged and reflected about. Sometimes the answer comes quickly, sometimes it takes years
adadtttt 2y ago
This sounds like OCD
pedalpete 2y ago
I'm a life long insomniac which got me into working in neurotech/sleeptech about 5 years ago. People talk about CBT-I, sleep anxiety, etc etc. From what I've found, this may be great for people with transient insomnia, where the stress is the cause of the insomnia. The key for these people is often the CBT, which helps the I, not that the CBT is to treat the I. I've come to asking chronic insomniacs "is there something you like about being awake in the middle of the night", and I've had many responses such as "it's my time to think", "I know I should be sleeping, but my mind is enjoying the peacefulness". I'm not a very stressed person, and I can meditate in the middle of the night, and yet still be awake.
spondylosaurus 2y ago
The "Dog mode" article referenced in the linked article sounds an awful lot like mania to me. I wonder if that's a factor here.
mssuraj 2y ago
Thanks for sharing this! I can relate to a lot of these: * the attempts at strict protocols and sleep hygiene (including doing CBT-I) * the anxiety loop about sleep itself perpetuating sleep disturbances But accepting wakefulness and often at times when feeling inspired, to just go with the flow and getting it out has really helped me too! Sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night anxious, other nights with lot of new ideas, and instead of now worrying about them, acknowledging them and dealing with it (meditation, journaling, parking them, or just going to work), helps me resume sleep even after multi-hour interruptions! Glad to hear there are others out there too :) PS: I also wrote a brief post about my own sleep experience if anyone's curious! https://open.substack.com/pub/mssuraj/p/why-we-shouldnt-sleep https://open.substack.com/pub/mssuraj/p/why-we-shouldnt-slee...
mancerayder 2y ago
Does anyone else live in a city and suffer from sensitivity to noise, specifically 'boom' noises like slamming doors and bassy music? I suffer from sensitivity to my own brain talking, but even if by some miracle there's a low stress period of inner chatter, and I haven't drank, I still have to worry about my neighbor upstairs slamming things or someone slamming their front doors in the hallway In decades of living in a city, every single apartment had this problem, even a brand new luxury building. And the amount of lack of sympathy from this problem I've gotten (using ear plugs doesn't stop BOOM type noises and top floors are rarely available) suggests it's a neuro divergence and not a "lifestyle" issue.
- northzen 2y ago
  I used to observe the increased sensetivity to noise during my epresssion periods. Observe the same problems also with bright light. What may actually help here is psychologist / psychiatrist and therapy or medication. I'm not a doctor and maybe your problem not related to yours, but I just wanted to share the direction which helped me to decrease sound sensetivity.
  - mancerayder 2y ago
    I definitely notice a correlation between sensitivity to noise and light (funny that you mentioned that too) and anxiety, but I'll add some irony here - also with insomnia.

72 points by rpastuszak 2y ago

Insomnia often responds very well to therapy techniques, but this requires the person to be open to the idea that therapy techniques can help. A common challenge is that people think they’ve “tried everything” already and therefore therapy suggestions are equivalent to dismissing the seriousness of their problem. It can take a self-discovery like this article describes to bring someone back around to the idea that the condition is related to something like anxiety or obsessive behaviors and is receptive to behavioral modification. > I'd just skip the night and take my sweet time to: write, draw, practice calligraphy, code a little toy, make a little sculpture from a scrap of wood. Importantly, none of these activities involve entering the ragebait vortex that exists in most people’s Internet time wasting destinations. For many people it’s enough to just cut out Reddit or similar sites in the evening.

Schiendelman 2y ago
You're so right. It's amazing how many people have this pattern for so many problems in their lives. "I've tried everything" / "I've tried that before" - and then closed to variations or investigation. If you have this habit it's always worth solving.
- xattt 2y ago
  … but I’ve tried to break this habit before and it’s not working!
  - Schiendelman 2y ago
    Hah! Exactly. It's turtles all the way down - people can't see their own patterns. This is why therapy is SO important for everyone.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

almost_usual 2y ago

Everyone is different but I was able to channel my creativity and have it at other times in the day rather than 8pm and unravel into the later evening and early morning. Waking up at 4AM everyday for a rigorous workout was necessary. Intense strength training or running a 5K at minimum and being done by 5AM. Sobriety as well to stick to the schedule with 6-7hrs of sleep. It works for me though.

Schiendelman 2y ago
I think in this case we know enough about biology to not even have to say "everyone is different" - regular exercise and regular wake times, combined with no alcohol, help anyone's sleep.
- silotis 2y ago
  Eh, I've found my insomnia to be largely independent of the amount of exercise I get. I can run 5 km during the day and still only manage 3-4 hours the next night.
  - Aurornis 2y ago
    The key was “regular exercise”. It’s not as simple as exercising once and having insomnia cured immediately for that night. It’s about lifestyle changes and adaptation to those changes over long periods.
    - silotis 2y ago
      I have a regular exercise routine I do every day. Believe it or not some people still have insomnia even when they follow all the usual lifestyle advise.
      - 1986 2y ago
        I find that I actually sleep worse the night I've worked out (3x / week)

huijzer 2y ago

> take a hot shower before bed I don’t know whether it was sensible for the author but for people with sleeping problems here: in general it’s probably not a good idea to take a shower before going to bed. Warm showers can feel relaxing but also increase the body temperature even though it should be lowering before sleep. Conversely, cold showers can stimulate the nervous system.

Schiendelman 2y ago
Given the author and their relationship with anxiety(?) and control, it's entirely possible it's harmful to their sleep, but they haven't tried not doing it for long enough to really validate.
picture 2y ago
Seconding this. I found out that I get mini-nightmares and get woken up if I try to sleep immediately after a hot shower, so I switched to morning showers. This also helps me set a hard wake up time since the shower gets me awake
n4r9 2y ago
Hot showers are known to aid sleep, although it's generally assumed that the shower happens an hour or two before bedtime. That allows the body to cool down. Some evidence suggests that's it's not the total body temperature but the rate of cooling which actually helps with winding down. https://www.sleepfoundation.org/sleep-hygiene/shower-before-bed https://www.sleepfoundation.org/sleep-hygiene/shower-before-...
2-3-7-43-1807 2y ago
wouldn't be surprised if warm showers actually lower the core temperature.

RevEng 2y ago

This idea of learning not to be anxious about insomnia is what CBT-I is all about. A lot of insomniacs are such because they worry about not sleeping, which keeps them awake. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. By learning to accept the prospect of a sleepless night, you allow yourself to relax and sleep. A lot of sleep anxiety can also be the result of generalized anxiety disorder, so it's worth considering therapy and/or medication. That anxiety can just be worries about your job, life, and other stressful environments, in which case improving your life conditions can alleviate the insomnia. There can be a lot of reasons for insomnia that aren't primary insomnia.

Waterluvian 2y ago

The only advice I’ll ever give on insomnia is to keep trying new things, and to go ask for help. I tried just about everything in terms of routine and ritual. Years and years of suffering and putting holes in basement drywall and believing I’m broken and increasingly frequent thoughts of suicide. And I hit a tipping point where the pain overcame my stupid stubbornness and I finally went and asked for help. “I don’t want Ambien or one of those life destroying drugs. I’d rather just go quietly” was my thinking and what I said to I the doctor. Introduced to a newish drug without significant side effects or addictiveness and it immediately changed my life. Sleep is now a feature as my dreams are incredibly vivid. It changed a family member’s life too. It didn’t do a thing for another close friend. Just keep trying things. Don’t give up.

grandiego 2y ago
Great for you! Could you give the name of such drug in order to ask some feedback from my doctor? Some years ago she prescribed one which got me sleeping but I woke up awfully tired (left after a week.)
- Waterluvian 2y ago
  Lemborexant.
melvinroest 2y ago
> Just keep trying things. Don’t give up. I agree with this. For me, fixing insomnia has been my number one priority for the past 3 years. It's also a fairly easy priority as during the day you don't actually need to do a whole lot about it other than some reflection. So improvement is pretty slowgoing, simply because you only have 1000 iterations and you're already 3 years older

dosinga 2y ago

Given your self permission to do something and don't care about the sleep is interesting; I have done this, worked on something till 2am and then fall asleep and wake up refreshed at 9am

zoklet-enjoyer 2y ago
That's 7 hours of sleep. I'd be surprised if you didn't feel refreshed.

127 2y ago

This might be obvious and trivial to others, but alas. Going to bed early at a specified time, shutting down all computers well before that and just spending hours relaxing, did absolute wonders to the quality of my sleep. I'm using a smart watch to measure and the positive impact is an order of magnitude. At times I entertained the idea that I was an insomniac, but I was just stupid. I need to shut down all stimulus well before I intend to sleep or it might ruin my entire night.

orev 2y ago
Also stop all caffeine consumption after 2:00 at the latest.
- balfirevic 2y ago
  People go to sleep and wake up at different times. Giving a fixed number makes no sense.
  - parpfish 2y ago
    And people have different caffeine sensitivities. Im one of the people that can have an after dinner espresso late at night with no effect. In fact, too much caffeine (like a large energy drink) often has the effect of knocking me out and I can barely keep my eyes open
balfirevic 2y ago
> and just spending hours relaxing How many hours?
lazyeye 2y ago
I set up a smart bulb to act as a "color clock" in the evening. Every day at 8pm it's orange, 9pm red, 10pm off (sleep time). The brightness is very low (dim glow) and all other lights are off. 8pm onwards is cool down time. I tend to read mainly after 9pm. It really calms you down and keeps you on a consistent sleep schedule without the angst of clock-watching. Highly recommended.
2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

melvinroest 2y ago

Since recently I have a fairly good control over my insomnia. Key points for me are tackling my biggest issues: __Issue 1: not wanting to go to bed__ By reflecting on the why and how, I can make myself go to bed much easier, even if I don't want to. It's just having a dialogue with myself __Issue 2: not falling asleep__ 1. Low dose of melatonin (0.3 mg): fixes the issue of falling asleep. I buy it in the Netherlands. It seems much better regulated than the US 2. Sometimes magnesium: fixes a bit of a restless leg issue I have sometimes __Issue 3: waking up after 4 hours of sleep and not falling asleep__ The issue is that I can't take melatonin anymore. I've noticed it makes me too woozy during the day. Here is what works for me: relax, slow down thoughts; shift hyper alertness to a cozy, euphoric and safe state; reducing social media addiction. Let's go through these ideas one by one 1. Relaxation through slow breathing: basic but important. I've noticed when I don't do this but do everything else, then I can still fall asleep but it's harder 2. Reducing the speed and frequency of thoughts through breathing meditation: if I think too much, I can't sleep. Breathing meditation (observing the breath) has taught me how to reduce my thoughts. Sometimes I don't even do breathing meditation but I just focus on lying still physically and mentally 3. Increasing feelings of coziness through mindfulness meditation: for me the biggest breakthrough has been the focus on coziness. Extreme coziness makes my consciousness drift away. So even if I don't fall asleep, I don't mind 4. Increasing feelings of euphoria through mindfulness meditation and thinking of pleasant thoughts: in my case that's about being at locations I like, with the people I love, doing things I find fun. This is in the same vein of "think of pleasant thoughts". Well, yea, but it needs to induce a mild euphoric effect which aids coziness 6. Increase feelings of safety by telling myself I am safe: simply telling myself I am safe makes me feel more safe. I never noticed that I felt unsafe or anything but telling myself I am safe makes me feel more safe. Safety increases coziness 7. Reducing the amount of waking up by reducing social media addiction: I don't have data, but the anecdotal evidence on my part is that I noticed I woke up more often when I was severely addicted to social media. I think in my case it's because whenever I wake up, I wake up with a lot of energy. So after 4 hours of sleep, I feel tremendously awake. I noticed that when I wanted (social) media entertainment that I felt even more restless. So my suspicion is that feeling restless for more entertainment can actually wake you up These are the strongest things I've noticed that are conductive to sleep for me, and I've tried a lot. I hope it helps someone. Almost no one talks about the feeling of coziness for me, but focusing on coziness is where it's at for me. Relaxation and pleasant thoughts are nice, but coziness is the main driver for me to fall asleep There are many more things I do such as knowing what sleeping position I sleep best in, controlling temperature, controlling light, controlling sound, eyemask, standing up when the sun rises, having a sleep journal where I write down every time I have had a bad night sleep or really good night of sleep. Anything surprising needs to be logged and reflected about. Sometimes the answer comes quickly, sometimes it takes years

adadtttt 2y ago

This sounds like OCD

pedalpete 2y ago

I'm a life long insomniac which got me into working in neurotech/sleeptech about 5 years ago. People talk about CBT-I, sleep anxiety, etc etc. From what I've found, this may be great for people with transient insomnia, where the stress is the cause of the insomnia. The key for these people is often the CBT, which helps the I, not that the CBT is to treat the I. I've come to asking chronic insomniacs "is there something you like about being awake in the middle of the night", and I've had many responses such as "it's my time to think", "I know I should be sleeping, but my mind is enjoying the peacefulness". I'm not a very stressed person, and I can meditate in the middle of the night, and yet still be awake.

spondylosaurus 2y ago

The "Dog mode" article referenced in the linked article sounds an awful lot like mania to me. I wonder if that's a factor here.

mssuraj 2y ago

Thanks for sharing this! I can relate to a lot of these: * the attempts at strict protocols and sleep hygiene (including doing CBT-I) * the anxiety loop about sleep itself perpetuating sleep disturbances But accepting wakefulness and often at times when feeling inspired, to just go with the flow and getting it out has really helped me too! Sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night anxious, other nights with lot of new ideas, and instead of now worrying about them, acknowledging them and dealing with it (meditation, journaling, parking them, or just going to work), helps me resume sleep even after multi-hour interruptions! Glad to hear there are others out there too :) PS: I also wrote a brief post about my own sleep experience if anyone's curious! https://open.substack.com/pub/mssuraj/p/why-we-shouldnt-sleep https://open.substack.com/pub/mssuraj/p/why-we-shouldnt-slee...

mancerayder 2y ago

Does anyone else live in a city and suffer from sensitivity to noise, specifically 'boom' noises like slamming doors and bassy music? I suffer from sensitivity to my own brain talking, but even if by some miracle there's a low stress period of inner chatter, and I haven't drank, I still have to worry about my neighbor upstairs slamming things or someone slamming their front doors in the hallway In decades of living in a city, every single apartment had this problem, even a brand new luxury building. And the amount of lack of sympathy from this problem I've gotten (using ear plugs doesn't stop BOOM type noises and top floors are rarely available) suggests it's a neuro divergence and not a "lifestyle" issue.

northzen 2y ago
I used to observe the increased sensetivity to noise during my epresssion periods. Observe the same problems also with bright light. What may actually help here is psychologist / psychiatrist and therapy or medication. I'm not a doctor and maybe your problem not related to yours, but I just wanted to share the direction which helped me to decrease sound sensetivity.
- mancerayder 2y ago
  I definitely notice a correlation between sensitivity to noise and light (funny that you mentioned that too) and anxiety, but I'll add some irony here - also with insomnia.