3 ms·

The last I looked into this, iMessage offers end to end encryption and RCS doesn't by default. Apple (rightfully, IMO) refuses to use Googles non open source en

The last I looked into this, iMessage offers end to end encryption and RCS doesn't by default. Apple (rightfully, IMO) refuses to use Googles non open source end to end encryption extension that also would require key exchange on Google owned servers.

viraptor 2y ago
As opposed to apples non open source solution that requires device authentication on apple owned servers... I think none of them really care about interoperability here, or they would release something open and able to do e2ee instead of this dance. I mean signal protocol is right there and available to everyone.
- worthless-trash 2y ago
  This debate is dead, no amount of education can fix it. Any amount of logical discussion is a waste of time.
thayne 2y ago
> RCS doesn't by default That isn't exactly accurate. The standard doesn't have e2ee, but if you use google messages with RCS with other android phone it is end to end encrypted. But it uses a proprietary google extension to RCS. But I would be surprised if google wasn't willing to work with apple to get e2ee RCS working between iMessage and google Messages, but Apple has no interest in that.
- JohnBooty 2y ago
  Just so I understand: it's bad for Apple to have a proprietary E2EE solution, but it's good for Google to have one, and additionally it's Apple's fault for not using Google's?
  - thayne 2y ago
    Standardized interoperable E2EE > Proprietary E2EE > client-to-server encryption > no encryption It isn't as simple as "apple bad, google good". Apple/iOS having E2EE is good. Apple refusing to cooperate at all in making E2EE interoperable with non apple products is bad. Google/Android having E2EE is good, and better than the claim above that RCS doesn't have E2EE by default. The fact that it is a proprietary extension is bad, but they seem more willing to interoperate. That said, if the positions were reversed, I suspect Google would also be more resistant to interoperability.
    - sbuk 2y ago
      So, explain exactly who Google is collaborating with by offering support for Jibe exclusively for certified Android devices with Google Play Services and only available through their proprietary messaging app. > That said, if the positions were reversed, I suspect Google would also be more resistant to interoperability. With Apple adding support to iOS for RCS, the shoe is on the other foot.
    - dwaite 2y ago
      Google is not cooperating with anyone when it comes to their existing proprietary E2EE implementation. E2EE is available in Google's client only, able to be run on the Android devices Google certifies, when talking through Google's RCS server. That is because the core of their security model is a centralized key server, outside of the rest of RCS, that acts as the source of truth for an account and its associated public keys. That fails once you have accounts which are not being authoritatively managed by Google, e.g. an email address with multiple messaging services attached, or a phone number which may be managed by any number of third party RCS installations. That is a problem which is still being actively solved.
    - JohnBooty 2y ago
      Standardized interoperable E2EE This isn't the thing you want it to be. Somebody has to broker connections and/or key exchange. You don't get to arbitrarily send messages to the device of somebody on the other side of the world unless a 3rd party is providing those services.

viraptor 2y ago

As opposed to apples non open source solution that requires device authentication on apple owned servers... I think none of them really care about interoperability here, or they would release something open and able to do e2ee instead of this dance. I mean signal protocol is right there and available to everyone.

worthless-trash 2y ago
This debate is dead, no amount of education can fix it. Any amount of logical discussion is a waste of time.

thayne 2y ago

> RCS doesn't by default That isn't exactly accurate. The standard doesn't have e2ee, but if you use google messages with RCS with other android phone it is end to end encrypted. But it uses a proprietary google extension to RCS. But I would be surprised if google wasn't willing to work with apple to get e2ee RCS working between iMessage and google Messages, but Apple has no interest in that.

JohnBooty 2y ago
Just so I understand: it's bad for Apple to have a proprietary E2EE solution, but it's good for Google to have one, and additionally it's Apple's fault for not using Google's?
- thayne 2y ago
  Standardized interoperable E2EE > Proprietary E2EE > client-to-server encryption > no encryption It isn't as simple as "apple bad, google good". Apple/iOS having E2EE is good. Apple refusing to cooperate at all in making E2EE interoperable with non apple products is bad. Google/Android having E2EE is good, and better than the claim above that RCS doesn't have E2EE by default. The fact that it is a proprietary extension is bad, but they seem more willing to interoperate. That said, if the positions were reversed, I suspect Google would also be more resistant to interoperability.
  - sbuk 2y ago
    So, explain exactly who Google is collaborating with by offering support for Jibe exclusively for certified Android devices with Google Play Services and only available through their proprietary messaging app. > That said, if the positions were reversed, I suspect Google would also be more resistant to interoperability. With Apple adding support to iOS for RCS, the shoe is on the other foot.
  - dwaite 2y ago
    Google is not cooperating with anyone when it comes to their existing proprietary E2EE implementation. E2EE is available in Google's client only, able to be run on the Android devices Google certifies, when talking through Google's RCS server. That is because the core of their security model is a centralized key server, outside of the rest of RCS, that acts as the source of truth for an account and its associated public keys. That fails once you have accounts which are not being authoritatively managed by Google, e.g. an email address with multiple messaging services attached, or a phone number which may be managed by any number of third party RCS installations. That is a problem which is still being actively solved.
  - JohnBooty 2y ago
    Standardized interoperable E2EE This isn't the thing you want it to be. Somebody has to broker connections and/or key exchange. You don't get to arbitrarily send messages to the device of somebody on the other side of the world unless a 3rd party is providing those services.