3 ms·

“DEI exists” isn’t an argument.

by relaxing 2y ago

kortilla 2y ago
That is quite literally what this thread is about.
- relaxing 2y ago
  I don’t think they were asking to quantify the existence of DEI, that would be silly. DEI’s existence is a fact, that’s not under debate.
  - kortilla 2y ago
    How much it exists in the hiring process is very much under debate.
    - relaxing 2y ago
      Of course it exists in the hiring process. How is that question? Maybe the real issue is people don’t actually know what DEI is.
      - kortilla 2y ago
        Do you understand the difference between “how much” and “does it”?
pizlonator 2y ago
DEI is a good idea that has led to a catastrophic backlash. Imagine a world where us intellectual types hadn’t given the right this kind of talking point on a silver platter. Election might have gone differently.
- relaxing 2y ago
  I like to imagine a world where the institutions that were supposed to protect us had done their jobs, and enforced the gentleman’s agreement we had, that worked so well these past 50 years.
- nitwit005 2y ago
  They'd have just invented another issue. I mean that genuinely. It's unclear reality matters at all. People just make up things to be mad about now.
  - dsff3f3f3f 2y ago
    > They'd have just invented another issue. I largely agree but I doubt other issues would be such massive free wins for Republicans. The Republican base has become rabid over DEI and trans issues and it has been really obvious for a while now that it was going to be a massive problem for Democrats. Sadly these issues have become more divisive than even gun control.
    - Xelynega 2y ago
      You point to the issue Republicans have with trans people existing, isn't that a counterpoint to your point? They were able to make a massive issue out of the existence of less than a percent of the population, if the can do that how can you say they wouldn't have made issues of literally anything?
    - nitwit005 2y ago
      They spend hundreds of millions of dollars on ads trying to convince people these things were a problem. That is, by definition, not a free win. You have to realize some of these issues didn't used to be as divisive. They made them divisive. Abortion being the most obvious. If you need an issue to rally around, you create one.
    - banannaise 2y ago
      "trans issues" are literally an issue they invented. They've been workshopping attack vectors for years. Bathrooms didn't really work, so they switched to athletes, which did. They will continue inventing issues until they find one that sticks.
dnissley 2y ago
Should one be required to submit a statement proving their past support of DEI as part of the hiring process in academia? What should people who disagree with such efforts put in this statement?
- Xelynega 2y ago
  If simply requiring it filters out the kind of people that would abhor minorities coexisting with them, I think it's worth it to them.
  - dnissley 2y ago
    And if it also filters out people who think these programs have good intentions but in reality are complete BS?
    - relaxing 2y ago
      “BS programs with good intentions” is like 80%* of all jobs. It’s a useful hiring signal. * YMMV
deltarholamda 2y ago
>“DEI exists” isn’t an argument. But it is. DEI indicates ideological capture. Whether it's good or bad doesn't matter, it's not germane to the purported goals of "advancing science/health/military readiness/etc". At best it's tangential. If we were a robust and wealthy country, then perhaps we could engage in these sorts of boutique social experiments. But we are not. We've got serious problems on multiple fronts. Fixing it before it all goes blooey means serious disruption, and we're now well into 30 years of positive reinforcement on the ideological capture. You're not going to get the results you need from the people who benefitted from the previous mismanagement. Trump learned that lesson quite directly the last time he was in office.
- relaxing 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - dang 2y ago
    If you could please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42951612 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42951612 and stop breaking HN's rules, regardless of how wrong anyone else is or you feel they are, we'd appreciate it. I know it's not easy when times are urgent and feelings understandably run high, but those are the times when the rules need to count the most (as the site guidelines say: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.") https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - relaxing 2y ago
      Oh sorry, just noticed this.

“DEI exists” isn’t an argument.

kortilla 2y ago

That is quite literally what this thread is about.

relaxing 2y ago
I don’t think they were asking to quantify the existence of DEI, that would be silly. DEI’s existence is a fact, that’s not under debate.
- kortilla 2y ago
  How much it exists in the hiring process is very much under debate.
  - relaxing 2y ago
    Of course it exists in the hiring process. How is that question? Maybe the real issue is people don’t actually know what DEI is.
    - kortilla 2y ago
      Do you understand the difference between “how much” and “does it”?

pizlonator 2y ago

DEI is a good idea that has led to a catastrophic backlash. Imagine a world where us intellectual types hadn’t given the right this kind of talking point on a silver platter. Election might have gone differently.

relaxing 2y ago
I like to imagine a world where the institutions that were supposed to protect us had done their jobs, and enforced the gentleman’s agreement we had, that worked so well these past 50 years.
nitwit005 2y ago
They'd have just invented another issue. I mean that genuinely. It's unclear reality matters at all. People just make up things to be mad about now.
- dsff3f3f3f 2y ago
  > They'd have just invented another issue. I largely agree but I doubt other issues would be such massive free wins for Republicans. The Republican base has become rabid over DEI and trans issues and it has been really obvious for a while now that it was going to be a massive problem for Democrats. Sadly these issues have become more divisive than even gun control.
  - Xelynega 2y ago
    You point to the issue Republicans have with trans people existing, isn't that a counterpoint to your point? They were able to make a massive issue out of the existence of less than a percent of the population, if the can do that how can you say they wouldn't have made issues of literally anything?
  - nitwit005 2y ago
    They spend hundreds of millions of dollars on ads trying to convince people these things were a problem. That is, by definition, not a free win. You have to realize some of these issues didn't used to be as divisive. They made them divisive. Abortion being the most obvious. If you need an issue to rally around, you create one.
  - banannaise 2y ago
    "trans issues" are literally an issue they invented. They've been workshopping attack vectors for years. Bathrooms didn't really work, so they switched to athletes, which did. They will continue inventing issues until they find one that sticks.

dnissley 2y ago

Should one be required to submit a statement proving their past support of DEI as part of the hiring process in academia? What should people who disagree with such efforts put in this statement?

Xelynega 2y ago
If simply requiring it filters out the kind of people that would abhor minorities coexisting with them, I think it's worth it to them.
- dnissley 2y ago
  And if it also filters out people who think these programs have good intentions but in reality are complete BS?
  - relaxing 2y ago
    “BS programs with good intentions” is like 80%* of all jobs. It’s a useful hiring signal. * YMMV

deltarholamda 2y ago

>“DEI exists” isn’t an argument. But it is. DEI indicates ideological capture. Whether it's good or bad doesn't matter, it's not germane to the purported goals of "advancing science/health/military readiness/etc". At best it's tangential. If we were a robust and wealthy country, then perhaps we could engage in these sorts of boutique social experiments. But we are not. We've got serious problems on multiple fronts. Fixing it before it all goes blooey means serious disruption, and we're now well into 30 years of positive reinforcement on the ideological capture. You're not going to get the results you need from the people who benefitted from the previous mismanagement. Trump learned that lesson quite directly the last time he was in office.

relaxing 2y ago
[flagged]
- dang 2y ago
  If you could please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42951612 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42951612 and stop breaking HN's rules, regardless of how wrong anyone else is or you feel they are, we'd appreciate it. I know it's not easy when times are urgent and feelings understandably run high, but those are the times when the rules need to count the most (as the site guidelines say: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.") https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - relaxing 2y ago
    Oh sorry, just noticed this.