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alcohol is proven to kill tens of thousands every year — obviously much worse than a few people who develop mental issues. Regardless in a free society people

alcohol is proven to kill tens of thousands every year — obviously much worse than a few people who develop mental issues. Regardless in a free society people should have agency over what they do with their bodies. Education about these substances is the most important thing.

lukan 2y ago
"Education about these substances is the most important thing." Indeed. "obviously much worse than a few people who develop mental issues." So maybe start by comparing the average heavy weed smoker, to the average non drug user, to see if the issue with cannabis is really "just some people developing mental issues" (Disclaimer blabla: I always was pro legalisation and am happy, it finally is legal in germany now)
- Perenti 2y ago
  History has shown that _bad_ education about substances doesn't work, as most kids know that pot rarely turns you into an axe wielding homicidal maniac. Educate using the truth - pot probably won't turn you crazy, but it might cost a lot of money and waste a lot of time.
- portaouflop 2y ago
  For what it’s worth education sees alcohol as a much less harmful substance than weed (for example in Germany since you brought it up) - it’s completely acceptable to drink heavily every weekend to the point of almost landing in the hospital, while heavy weed use is seen as very deplorable (lazy etc). So while weed is not without harm i think alcohol has a magnitudes worse impact on society
  - lukan 2y ago
    Oh for sure, the first time I vomitted from alcohol was when I was 14 on a catholic winefestival - the wine was given to us as a present from the official organisators. But it has been some years and I believe (and hope) at least that changed a bit. Otherwise alcoholism is epidemic. But stoners, or well, people combing both and meth and whatever is a thing as well. Either way, also weed on its own is not harmless either, easily abused and your comment gave me the impression it is no big deal. Just like it was introduced to me as a teenager from the cool kids. And this is dangerous.
    - portaouflop 2y ago
      I think we are on the same page here. I just want to emphasise that for example alcohol and tobacco are magnitudes more abused than any other substances, 10x to be exact: Results: Alcohol was the most frequently used substance, with a 30-day prevalence of 70.5% (36.1 million people), followed by non-opioid analgesic drugs (47.4%; 24.2 million) and conventional tobacco products (22.7%; 11.6 million). E-cigarettes were used by 4.3% (2.2 million) and heat-not-burn products by 1.3% (665 000). Among illegal drugs (12-month prevalence), cannabis was the most frequently used (8.8%; 4.5 million), followed by cocaine/crack (1.6%; 818 000) and amphetamine (1.4%; 716 000). Rates of problematic use among the study participants were 17.6% for alcohol (9.0 million), 7.8% for tobacco (4.0 million), 5.7% for psychoactive medications (2.9 million), and 2.5% for cannabis (1.3 million). From https://www.aerzteblatt.de/int/archive/article/226333/The-use-of-psychoactive-substances-in-Germany-findings-from-the-Epidemiological-Survey-of-Substance-Abuse-2021 https://www.aerzteblatt.de/int/archive/article/226333/The-us... So yes weed is dangerous but alcohol is more than 10 times as dangerous- this nuance is often lost in public debate
      - lukan 2y ago
        "but alcohol is more than 10 times as dangerous" That is quite subjective and not solid data. At least I am not aware of a scientific consensus in that regard. Alcohol is just more widespread because it was legal and part of the culture, so more abuse there. But this context here is about how that might change with the legal status.
        portaouflop 2y ago
        From Bundesgesundheitsministerium: Laut dem Alkoholatlas 2022 des Deutschen Krebsforschungszentrums ( DKFZ ) starben in Deutschland im Jahr 2020 rund 14.200 Menschen (davon 10.600 Männer und 3.600 Frauen) an Krankheiten, die ausschließlich auf Alkoholkonsum zurückzuführen sind. That are 14200 deaths solely due to alcohol in Germany every year — the only figure I found for cannabis was about 1-200 - so it’s more than 100 times more dangerous if you only look at official death statistics — this is as solid as the data gets. Sure things might change with legalisation— but looking at the Netherlands the opposite is most likely the case. So yea I retract my earlier statement— alcohol is not 10 times more dangerous, it’s >100 times more deadly. This doesn’t even account for all the accidents and other injuries related to alcohol.

lukan 2y ago

"Education about these substances is the most important thing." Indeed. "obviously much worse than a few people who develop mental issues." So maybe start by comparing the average heavy weed smoker, to the average non drug user, to see if the issue with cannabis is really "just some people developing mental issues" (Disclaimer blabla: I always was pro legalisation and am happy, it finally is legal in germany now)

Perenti 2y ago
History has shown that _bad_ education about substances doesn't work, as most kids know that pot rarely turns you into an axe wielding homicidal maniac. Educate using the truth - pot probably won't turn you crazy, but it might cost a lot of money and waste a lot of time.
portaouflop 2y ago
For what it’s worth education sees alcohol as a much less harmful substance than weed (for example in Germany since you brought it up) - it’s completely acceptable to drink heavily every weekend to the point of almost landing in the hospital, while heavy weed use is seen as very deplorable (lazy etc). So while weed is not without harm i think alcohol has a magnitudes worse impact on society
- lukan 2y ago
  Oh for sure, the first time I vomitted from alcohol was when I was 14 on a catholic winefestival - the wine was given to us as a present from the official organisators. But it has been some years and I believe (and hope) at least that changed a bit. Otherwise alcoholism is epidemic. But stoners, or well, people combing both and meth and whatever is a thing as well. Either way, also weed on its own is not harmless either, easily abused and your comment gave me the impression it is no big deal. Just like it was introduced to me as a teenager from the cool kids. And this is dangerous.
  - portaouflop 2y ago
    I think we are on the same page here. I just want to emphasise that for example alcohol and tobacco are magnitudes more abused than any other substances, 10x to be exact: Results: Alcohol was the most frequently used substance, with a 30-day prevalence of 70.5% (36.1 million people), followed by non-opioid analgesic drugs (47.4%; 24.2 million) and conventional tobacco products (22.7%; 11.6 million). E-cigarettes were used by 4.3% (2.2 million) and heat-not-burn products by 1.3% (665 000). Among illegal drugs (12-month prevalence), cannabis was the most frequently used (8.8%; 4.5 million), followed by cocaine/crack (1.6%; 818 000) and amphetamine (1.4%; 716 000). Rates of problematic use among the study participants were 17.6% for alcohol (9.0 million), 7.8% for tobacco (4.0 million), 5.7% for psychoactive medications (2.9 million), and 2.5% for cannabis (1.3 million). From https://www.aerzteblatt.de/int/archive/article/226333/The-use-of-psychoactive-substances-in-Germany-findings-from-the-Epidemiological-Survey-of-Substance-Abuse-2021 https://www.aerzteblatt.de/int/archive/article/226333/The-us... So yes weed is dangerous but alcohol is more than 10 times as dangerous- this nuance is often lost in public debate
    - lukan 2y ago
      "but alcohol is more than 10 times as dangerous" That is quite subjective and not solid data. At least I am not aware of a scientific consensus in that regard. Alcohol is just more widespread because it was legal and part of the culture, so more abuse there. But this context here is about how that might change with the legal status.
      - portaouflop 2y ago
        From Bundesgesundheitsministerium: Laut dem Alkoholatlas 2022 des Deutschen Krebsforschungszentrums ( DKFZ ) starben in Deutschland im Jahr 2020 rund 14.200 Menschen (davon 10.600 Männer und 3.600 Frauen) an Krankheiten, die ausschließlich auf Alkoholkonsum zurückzuführen sind. That are 14200 deaths solely due to alcohol in Germany every year — the only figure I found for cannabis was about 1-200 - so it’s more than 100 times more dangerous if you only look at official death statistics — this is as solid as the data gets. Sure things might change with legalisation— but looking at the Netherlands the opposite is most likely the case. So yea I retract my earlier statement— alcohol is not 10 times more dangerous, it’s >100 times more deadly. This doesn’t even account for all the accidents and other injuries related to alcohol.